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Old 10-19-2008, 03:50 PM
 
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Did the Thief on the Cross go Straight to Heaven?

I am a Latter-day Saint Christian (yes... a "Mormon" which is a misnomer). I have my own beliefs regarding this matter, but would be interested in hearing your beliefs and why you believe this way. Looking forward to an uplifting, respectful conversation for any who are interested.
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Old 10-19-2008, 05:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JNHarris View Post
Did the Thief on the Cross go Straight to Heaven?

I am a Latter-day Saint Christian (yes... a "Mormon" which is a misnomer). I have my own beliefs regarding this matter, but would be interested in hearing your beliefs and why you believe this way. Looking forward to an uplifting, respectful conversation for any who are interested.
I believe his body is in the earth and his spirit is with God. Basically he`s dead until God resurrects him. The bible refers to death as sleep..so he is in essence... unconscious until resurrection day.
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Old 10-19-2008, 05:45 PM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
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Nope, IMO, the thief went to paradise to wait on Jesus who told him "Today, you shall be with me in paradise"
The thief died before Jesus did.. remember..He (the thief) died under the old law..Jesus spent three days "leading the captives out of captivity"..He was preaching the good news (his gospel) to those who had died under the law (the old covenant) and could not enter heaven..
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Old 10-19-2008, 06:07 PM
 
Location: Oxford, OH
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I guess I believe that God is not bound to time like we are. Creation fell along with man, and there were seasons. I think in the garden the fruit was always on the trees. I think the thief will be resurrected when we are when Christ comes back. Not that I worry about this since I know God is in charge and will do things in the perfect way. I think sometimes we worry about the details and God will bring his plan to pass in his perfect judgement and time. I think in Heaven we will not age with our spiritual bodies. I always say I'm ordering mine in a size 5 for eternity...LOL
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Old 10-19-2008, 06:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
Nope, IMO, the thief went to paradise to wait on Jesus who told him "Today, you shall be with me in paradise"
The thief died before Jesus did.. remember..He (the thief) died under the old law..Jesus spent three days "leading the captives out of captivity"..He was preaching the good news (his gospel) to those who had died under the law (the old covenant) and could not enter heaven..
I know that is what the church teaches but what scripture says he was preaching the good news to dead people. If they are dead..how can he preach to them? The bible says the dead know nothing. They are asleep. What would be the purpose of a resurrection if we are all happy in heaven talking,singing, and worshipping? If we are so happy after death..what`s the need for a resurrection? Jesus committed his spirit to the father`s hands when he died. His spirit went to be with God who gave it and his body went back to the dust of the earth where it came from. Our spirit apart from our body is not alive. But it will be alive again when Jesus brings our spirits back and reunites them with our body on resurrection day. Only God through Jesus makes that possible and that is the good news. Just my thoughts.
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Old 10-19-2008, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
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Spm, I didn't say Jesus took him to heaven with Him..According to the bible, there were witnesses who saw Jesus ascend and seems like he was alone..I don't think paradise was heaven and I really don't think it (paradise) existed any more after Christ preached to them. Perhaps he took their souls with him and their bodies fell back to sleep in death for the judgement..Whatever we think,imo, has nothing to do with our salvation.. But I believe God is pleased that He is in our thoughts, and I imagine he smiles a little at our imaginations and thoughts, as long as we are sharing with each other in a loving, non arguementive, bible thumping way, I really believe that He is in our midst
All the things discussed here really come down to our opinions..That is all good, because that is how we learn to get.. along and accept each other as brothers and sisters in Christ..The thing that counts for me is the greatest commandment..If we abide by that, everything kind of falls into place..
I really enjoy everyones opinions that come from their own opinions about what they have read and learned from the bible..I have read it many times, but each time I do I say a little prayer that the Holy Spirit will cleanse my soul of all the manmade doctrines and interpretations that may be there and that he will lead me where he feels I need to be..
The peace he gives me is my "blessed assurance"
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Old 10-19-2008, 06:57 PM
 
2,945 posts, read 4,771,609 times
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Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
Spm, I didn't say Jesus took him to heaven with Him..According to the bible, there were witnesses who saw Jesus ascend and seems like he was alone..I don't think paradise was heaven and I really don't think it (paradise) existed any more after Christ preached to them. Perhaps he took their souls with him and their bodies fell back to sleep in death for the judgement..Whatever we think,imo, has nothing to do with our salvation.. But I believe God is pleased that He is in our thoughts, and I imagine he smiles a little at our imaginations and thoughts, as long as we are sharing with each other in a loving, non arguementive, bible thumping way, I really believe that He is in our midst
All the things discussed here really come down to our opinions..That is all good, because that is how we learn to get.. along and accept each other as brothers and sisters in Christ..The thing that counts for me is the greatest commandment..If we abide by that, everything kind of falls into place..
I really enjoy everyones opinions that come from their own opinions about what they have read and learned from the bible..I have read it many times, but each time I do I say a little prayer that the Holy Spirit will cleanse my soul of all the manmade doctrines and interpretations that may be there and that he will lead me where he feels I need to be..
The peace he gives me is my "blessed assurance"
I agree with that blue..thx for sharing.
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Old 10-19-2008, 07:07 PM
 
Location: NC
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Hi, my belief is the same as those believers who believe that a person is dead =sleeping until the resurrection. They sleep because we know that death is temporary and that they will one day be resurrected. I believe that there can be a couple of interpretations of the statement made by Jesus due to fact that no one knows where the comma in Luke 23:43 is supposed to be. I have read it this way in some translations or articles discussing the placement of the comma, "Truly, truly or verily verily, I say to you, today or this day you shall be with me in paradise" and I have read, "Truly, truly I say to you today or this day, you shall be with me in paradise". So you can see where there might be some disagreement on what the Lord was saying if you consider this. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 10-19-2008 at 07:25 PM..
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Old 10-19-2008, 11:35 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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That all depends on whose definition of heaven we are talking about.

Since LDS believe that good works and keeping the law are required then no.

If we are talking about the way the Bible teaches ...
1. the way Christ taught - by grace through faith not by works Ephesians 2:8
2. that Jesus is the only way to the Father (not the temple) John 14:6
3. there is no other gospel that is needed for salvation Galatians 1:9
4. Jesus was our subsitute for sin, that no other requirements are necessary (not our example as the LDS teaches) Hebrews 7:27
5. Because we are clothed by the blood of Jesus, we are now holy, perfect in the eyes of Heavenly Father as He demands Hebrews 10:14


.....then yes. Those who believe that are children of God and are invited into heaven. Those who do not, are thown out into outer darkness, even if he trys to sneek his way into heaven:

Matthew 22:12-14
'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.

13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Last edited by twin.spin; 10-20-2008 at 12:05 AM..
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Old 10-20-2008, 04:43 AM
 
178 posts, read 278,607 times
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Default I Believe Paradise and Heaven are Different

Thanks for the responses thus far. It is interesting to see the different ways that the passage in Luke 23:42-43 can be interpreted. "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

I personally don't believe that the thief went straight to heaven because I believe paradise and heaven to be different locations, I don't believe them to be the same thing.

2Nephi chapter 9 of the Book of Mormon teaches of the spirit world. This is taught as a separate location than heaven. It is divided into paradise and hell (spirit prison) which are both holding places for the righteous and the wicked until the resurrection of their spirits to their bodies. At which time these resurrected bodies may then enter heaven depending on their union (or lack of union) with Christ. 2 Nephi 9

In John 20: 17 we read when Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene after His resurrection, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father..."

He later allows the disciples to touch him, indicated that He had at that point ascended and come back. Where then was Jesus for the three days before His resurrection if not in Heaven? Luke stated that He went to Paradise. However, Peter teaches something slightly different.

Peter 3:19-20 teaches that by His death, "he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah..."

So according to Peter, the spirits of those who were destroyed by the flood were being preached to during this time... WOW... this really can change many paradigms...

Furthermore, It would seem from Luke that Jesus stated he was going to paradise, but then Peter seems to teach he went to spirit prison (hell) during the time His Spirit was separated from His body.

Doctrine and Covenants 138, also a latter-day revelation, sheds wonderful light on this question, I believe rectifying the two passages. Doctrine and Covenants 138



Thoughts?

Last edited by JNHarris; 10-20-2008 at 05:08 AM..
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