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Old 10-23-2008, 01:52 AM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
Hmmmm.... It's interesting... I would be under the impression that Jesus does not want worship but a living and equal relationship with him. Walking along with him rather than being a subjective slave to his will. Believing in him but not taking on the burden of sacrifice such as he did - because he already did that.

Maybe it's just me, but when I hear the word worship I can't help but think of a poor 13th century pauper who is brought before the king of the land and fearfully gets down on his knees in a sign of submission and worship... That to me just doesn't seem to adequately fit the description of walking along with someone.
Reading the gospels and seeing Jesus' interaction with those around him does show us a man of humility that did not demand a slavelike devotion. He loved us when we weren't lovely. He died for us to make a way for us to be able to come into a position of relationship with him, "the firstborn among many brethren."

What sends us to our knees, what demands worship is his holiness. It is all of who he is, we have none save for what he bestows upon us. A definition of worship that I come back to is "He is holy, I am not."

We have a holy God, one that could demand a dictatorial position, yet he comes in complete humility, in the form of a servant and treats us as a brother. He is purifying all of us, his church, to be his bride, his lover. This imagery is more than we can fully grasp. My hope and trust is that in heaven, I will be able to fully appreciate the greatness of the gift that he is to me, to us that are His.

I am reminded of Graham Kendrick's song, "The Servant King" ...hands that flung stars into space -- to cruel nails surrendered....
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Old 10-23-2008, 05:10 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,061,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
Quick question for you guys to discuss until I can get back here:

Is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and Name Above All Names worthy of worship?

Should we, as Christian, worship Jesus Christ?

Why or why not?

God bless!
Oh, Alpha, Yes! He is our (my) God!! How can one not? If one would really think what He has done.....remembering the suffering of the Cross and His blood pouring out from the wounds, my life brought upon Him. Oh, dear, Lord forgive us (me)
How can ones heart not bowed and worshiping Him, and with our lips one can do nothing but praise Him!!!
Oh, Alpha, I don't know how to put my heart on this page.....But that I love Him so much!!!

Psalm 107:1,22
Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever.
Let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare His works with rejoicing.
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Old 10-23-2008, 06:37 AM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,715 posts, read 12,062,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Reading the gospels and seeing Jesus' interaction with those around him does show us a man of humility that did not demand a slavelike devotion. He loved us when we weren't lovely. He died for us to make a way for us to be able to come into a position of relationship with him, "the firstborn among many brethren."

What sends us to our knees, what demands worship is his holiness. It is all of who he is, we have none save for what he bestows upon us. A definition of worship that I come back to is "He is holy, I am not."

We have a holy God, one that could demand a dictatorial position, yet he comes in complete humility, in the form of a servant and treats us as a brother. He is purifying all of us, his church, to be his bride, his lover. This imagery is more than we can fully grasp. My hope and trust is that in heaven, I will be able to fully appreciate the greatness of the gift that he is to me, to us that are His.

I am reminded of Graham Kendrick's song, "The Servant King" ...hands that flung stars into space -- to cruel nails surrendered....
Saintmarks,

I'm not really on the Christianity forum to debate the finer merits of why you should or shouldn't believe in Christ. As you probably are well aware, I don't believe in Christ and so my perspective is mostly from that of an outsider anyway. But, I have to admit that I found the wording of the original poster to be interesting because the question seemed almost rhetorical in nature and so simple to answer - even from a non-believer's standpoint. I mean, the obvious answer if I were a Christian would be "Duh, yeah you worship Christ."

And far be it from me to read too deeply into the OP but I just got a certain sense that perhaps there was a subtle hint of emphasis on the word "worship". Of course, I have no doubt that I'll be corrected if I'm wrong.

Nevertheless, I think that when we talk about the word "worship" I have this strange thing that rattles around in my head. Call me entirely abstract because I am convinced that I am not normal. But, here's what I often think about when I think of people and the word "worship" and as to how and why people should be precarious in the term they use.

Have you ever seen the movie Braveheart? In case you haven't, it takes place around the 13th or 14th century in Scotland and England where William Wallace leads a group of bandits and villagers against the armies of the English. Now, in the movie they have some fantastic scenes of the two massive armies lining up for battle and they start charging at one another with the full brunt of their weapons ready to decimate each other. Now, when I watched the movie as a kid of about twelve or thirteen years old I remember thinking to myself "Wouldn't it be cool if you could transport yourself back in time and hand the Scottish villagers a bunch of AK-47's, land mines, and bazooka's?"

Now, I'm not comparing Jesus to a time traveling arms dealer but I often wonder how people would respond if a person were able to do such a thing. Could you imagine going back to an era where gunpowder was not even a twinkle of a thought and handing out bazookas to an army of villagers and showing them how quickly they could defeat the opposing army with such weapons? I imagine you'd be lauded as a hero. You'd probably even be worshiped.

And I suppose my point in all of this is that if you believe in the Bible and you believe that Christ was who he says he was than he surely had what we might consider an edge on the average human being in all of the miracles he performed. He would certainly be seen as someone absolutely powerful and many would probably consider him superior in many ways. But, does merely being more technologically savvy imply worship? If aliens came to the planet Earth and were able to manipulate our physics and our properties and perform the same things that Jesus did would they be worthy of worship? I think that poses an interesting question.

Yet, what I find to be more truth-telling is that my interpretation of Jesus is not of a person that demanded worship for his superior abilities and ways but that of what we might call a "lesser worship" in perhaps the same fashion that the disciples worshiped him. I know it may sound confusing but I just don't get the impression that the disciples kissed his feet and worshiped him as a God in the colloquial (and parochial) sense we think of when I hear the word worship.

I think that if we are to define worship that as a Christian it would certainly seem like a word that properly fits but I think that perhaps devotion would be a better substitute. I know I must sound like I'm splitting hairs but I really think there's a difference between worship and devotion. I'm devoted to my wife but I don't worship her. I love her and we are mutually devoted to one another and we walk and talk and live alongside one another. But neither of us literally worship one another. Perhaps in passing or in gest someone may make the claim that I "worship the ground she walks on" but that seems to be another twisting of the English language that has its roots elsewhere.

I hope I'm making sense?

Last edited by GCSTroop; 10-23-2008 at 07:10 AM..
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Old 10-23-2008, 08:47 AM
 
3,086 posts, read 5,572,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
I think that if we are to define worship that as a Christian it would certainly seem like a word that properly fits but I think that perhaps devotion would be a better substitute. I know I must sound like I'm splitting hairs but I really think there's a difference between worship and devotion. I'm devoted to my wife but I don't worship her. I love her and we are mutually devoted to one another and we walk and talk and live alongside one another.
Good post.. I think you're seeing something, and I think I agree with you in a certain sense (how's that for a conclusive statement ?).

Don't know if my thoughts make sense.. I'm just speaking my mind because you've opened up a new line of thought.. but God in the Old Testament did deal with His people in a different way than He does today. It seems like there was alot of fear involved.. but maybe that's just my impression, since His people often did disobey Him, had many bad things happen to them, and because their love towards Him many times was not the way it should have been it was more of a "fear of punishment" relationship many times. And He spoke to them through prophets, whose message was often warning of God's judgments (because, once again, their lack of love to Him) altho there are many places where there is a message of hope.

Also, their method of worship was different than today. They brought literal sacrifices to the temple, and worshipped God in a "holy place" where sometimes He would manifest His presence to them.. but usually they "contacted Him" through the priest.

What about now?

God is still God. He is still almighty and holy. But there is a different element present today... Jesus has died for us, and thus we can be "worthy" before Him. No longer are we simply servants, we can be sons! We have a one-on-one relationship daily with Him. And because of this, we love Jesus.

Worthy of worship? By all means! But not a worship out of fear and trembling, but more, like you mentioned, a devotion.. devoting our lives to Him because of what He has done for us.
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Old 10-23-2008, 08:56 AM
 
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Troop... what you have to understand is that we worship Jesus because we love Him. Not because we fear him.

The apostle Paul talks about being a bond servant - a love slave. That is someone who after being set free from servanthood by their master chooses to stay with them and serve them - Not because they fear them but because they love them.

It should be a love relationship -- like a marriage -- that you choose to be in.

Alpha, I woke up this morning thinking about this song that we sing in church in relation to this thread...

He is Lord,
He is Lord...
He is risen from the dead
and He is Lord.

Every knee will bow
Every tongue confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord...

Another one of those simple little Jesus songs that I still love.

Last edited by World Citizen; 10-23-2008 at 09:13 AM..
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Old 10-23-2008, 08:58 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post

God is still God. He is still almighty and holy. But there is a different element present today... Jesus has died for us, and thus we can be "worthy" before Him. No longer are we simply servants, we can be sons! We have a one-on-one relationship daily with Him. And because of this, we love Jesus.

Worthy of worship? By all means! But not a worship out of fear and trembling, but more, like you mentioned, a devotion.. devoting our lives to Him because of what He has done for us.
Amen.... cg8!!! No, fear! Complete devotion!!

Blessings
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Old 10-23-2008, 09:00 AM
 
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Default Perfect love casts out fear...

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us...
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Old 10-23-2008, 09:05 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
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Quote:
Originally Posted by World Citizen View Post
Perfect love casts out fear...
Perfect scripture!! His love takes all fear out of our hearts and gives us a hope, confidence in Him and a whole lot of love!!!
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Old 10-23-2008, 09:55 AM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
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cg81, I really like your #24 post. It pretty well covers God in both Testaments. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow...but His sameness is the love He has towards His children. In the OT he was attempting to bring them to him through those laws, but they 'would not" ! Because of their unbelief, He sent His only begotton Son to bring all who believe and obey Him to be His children. Sad to say, Christ is not being received much better than the old law was.
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Old 10-23-2008, 10:08 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,586,534 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marianinark View Post
cg81, I really like your #24 post. It pretty well covers God in both Testaments. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow...but His sameness is the love He has towards His children. In the OT he was attempting to bring them to him through those laws, but they 'would not" ! Because of their unbelief, He sent His only begotton Son to bring all who believe and obey Him to be His children. Sad to say, Christ is not being received much better than the old law was.
By your post, one could conclude that God may not be satisfied with the results of His last "attempt".

Surely that's not what you meant.

I believe that God knew Jesus was headed here before He created "here".
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