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Old 10-28-2008, 01:07 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,452,213 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
My point of view when I talked about 4 billion people not 'knowing the gospel' was hypothetical. In other words, if Christianity is true, does it make sense? The answer is no,
so why continue bothering people? I'm not saying "2/3 of the world is suffering because you can't tell them the good news" from my own point of view, I'm trying to understand what Christians believe. And they don't even understand it themselves,
Christianity makes sense you just refuse to accept the truth, it makes every bit of sense because it is the truth. Christianity answers every question man ever had since the beginning of time. "Why am I here?", "What is my purpose?" How do I know what is right from wrong?", "Is there life after death?"

Quote:
when they use the "we can't know God's ways" excuse. It makes more sense that evangelicals are brainwashed into converting others so that the church can gain more sheep for tithing, or for fighting for the Christian leaders' causes.
It is true we can't know all of God's ways but we have been provided a bible which gives us some insight of who God is and his divine natures. No matter what happens on this planet, it is God's will, nothing is by chance or luck. Yes even the horrible things are His will also doesn't mean He made it happen but then again, maybe He did for His own reasons that are higher than ours. We just know God is love and He is good and will always do good and ultimately those bad things will be used for His good, and that is what we hold onto and trust because that is His nature.

Quote:
You and I agree that 4 billion people suffering eternal damnation doesn't make sense, I'm sure. You just say it doesn't make sense because 'we can't know God's ways' (which is a cop-out for not being able to apply your faith to reason). I say it doesn't make sense because it was a convoluted story made up to control much simpler minds than ours today, which actually uses reason to conclude.
You ever ask yourself. Why are we humans so just. Why are we always seeking justice, holding people accountable, we have police to arrest, U.S. marshalls to go far and wide to track down the criminal, prisions to hold and even execution. Is it maybe God is also just and seeks accountability from us. God hates sin and since He is a just God He must punish sin. Eternal hell is a punishment for offending an eternal God. We go to hell because we broke His laws. (Did you ever lie? Did you ever steal? Did you ever blaspheme your God's name?.....) God MUST punish sin if He didn't then He wouldn't be God.

Quote:
You don't believe what Muslims say, or what Jews say. And they don't believe Christians. All three know for a fact they will be saved, or are following the right path, or whatever the specifics of their religion are. All three know for a fact the other religions are false. Why can religious people only see other peoples' religions clearly?
Islam and Judaism are more work righteous, weighing your good deeds vs your bad ones. Muslims don't even know they are going to heaven unless they are martyrs and even if they reach, after a few thousand year Allah could kick them out and send them to hell. Our God remains the same yesterday, today and forever, He never changes if He did, He wouldn't be God

Christianity is the only religion that has no works. There is nothing we can do to go to heaven, absolutely nothing. It is only by God's grace. No religion has faced more scrutiny than Christianity and no book more than the bible and yet not only are we still here but we are growing in China, Middle East etc.....

No matter what religions are out there, or why we can't see them as well, the question still remains, Is Christianity true?

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 10-28-2008 at 01:19 PM..
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Old 10-28-2008, 03:00 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,555,893 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
It is true we can't know all of God's ways but we have been provided a bible which gives us some insight of who God is and his divine natures. No matter what happens on this planet, it is God's will, nothing is by chance or luck. Yes even the horrible things are His will also doesn't mean He made it happen but then again, maybe He did for His own reasons that are higher than ours. We just know God is love and He is good and will always do good and ultimately those bad things will be used for His good, and that is what we hold onto and trust because that is His nature.
You touch on something very important for Christians to consider. It's my firm belief that God (being sovereign) does initiate all things (Rom 11:36, 1 Cor 8:6), but we have trouble with the concept of what is "bad" because of the very nature we adopted at the fall.

(Pardon me for getting deep suddenly). If "we" had not partaken of the "knowledge of good and evil", all would be life in Him (the other tree was Life). The pure in heart will see God (Matt 5:8) in all things, for we must see Him high and lifted up. He is Lord not just in the things we consider acceptable in the test of good vs. bad, but the whole is His. This is too high for us, but let us see Him as Lord of all.
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Old 10-28-2008, 03:16 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,552 times
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(The quote function doesn't work for me so I copy and paste
LogicIsYourFriend

Personally, it bugs the crap out of me when Christians get all zealous and try to convert everyone they see. Just leave people alone! If this God who can do absolutely anything wanted to save people, he would tell them himself. He wouldn't let them trust other people, since he knows people are fallible and 'get it wrong' more often than not. And he knows all, right? so of course he knows that depending on where you are born, you may become a very devout Muslim, or Jew! or.. an
atheist! ooohhhh!! Heaven forbid, right? But nope, heaven does not forbid.

There are 6 billion people in this world, and only 2 billion are Christian. This all-loving god really thinks it's best to let the other 2/3 of the world suffer eternally in hell?


You are attacking a straw man. Like so many, even who have experienced the Spirit of God, you're repeating what you heard someone else say (who in turn are only repeating what was told to them) and not what the Bible actually teaches.

There is only one verse in the entire King James Version that even comes close to saying anything like "suffer eternally in hell," which it doesn't even actually say, though it is a poor translation there. That is in Matthew 25:45 where it has "everlasting punishment." Even in English it is "punishment" and not "punishing" which would be necessary if it was continuous. An example that would fulfill this word is David was not allowed to build the temple because he was a man of war. His punishment could not be repented of. Any sincere Christian who is not brain-dead or worse recognizes Scripture is in Hebrew and Greek. Here, what KJV renders "punishment" has in the original kolasis, "chastening," based on kolazo, "chasten," which is, "with a view to amendment, in contrast to punishment which is penal." The context is judging the nations according to how they treat the helpless: widows and orphans, those in jail or without sufficient covering, clothes or shelter, the alien from another language and culture . . . what various countries are like in these matters when Jesus takes charge of the entire world, not at what has been in their theology called "the last judgment," (another phrase I still haven't found.) Of course the Greek word eon is here as an adjective which a quick survey of occurrences indicates it cannot means endless time, but refers to specific ages of which the Bible indicates a minimum of five, all eventually ending.

The only other occasion that comes close in English (Revelation 22:10) concerns no people directly because it only refers to the beast (animal lusts of the flesh?), the false prophet (religious impulses of the flesh) and the devil (adversarial nature of the flesh) being in whatever is meant by "the lake of fire" (which is mentioned only in the most symbolical book in the Bible). In fact, other than these 3 entities, the only other things directly stated by the Bible to be in the lake of fire is death and the state (not a place) that results from death, hades, or, "the unseen."

God will come into relationship with all in due time. Not every human will be constituted one of His holy ones in this life. Death does not determine destiny. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach God loves you until you die. In the book of Jonah (chapter 2) it is after Jonah dies and goes to hell forever that he prays and God answers by saving him from there. Similarly, "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6, see also 3:18-20)

Now these preceding little bit of Bible facts are simple and sufficient except for those in thrall to the professionals with titles of honor from other men who insist they're who should hold the microphone. The majority of Christians world wide meet in their homes. It is estimated that at the present rate of growth the people voting with their feet will be the majority by 2010 in the USA as well, outside of the cages of Babylon! To meet as the body of Christ with every member participating is probably more practically important in most instances than certain slanders against God such as the doctrine of ceaselss torture without end. Still, I would be hard pressed to come up with anything else so obviously unexamined, either for the Bible evidence or reason, which reason would deduce, based on the nature of everything that exists, God incapable to be producing (all this something rather than nothing at all) if He was so weak, stupid and ill-natured as to sustain countless sentient creatures of His own making in fires of His own making so they could be ceaselessly tortured without end. This is probably Satan's most sucessful lie against God.
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Old 10-28-2008, 03:28 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,555,893 times
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Sorry James, can't rep you currently...

I'm getting the feeling that perhaps an all out war should be proclaimed against the doctrine of eternal punishment. I've believed in the contemporary teachings, as most have - but there is a going on with the Lord, leaving the milk and getting on with the meat. Knowing Him.

I love you all, but my God is a redeemer.
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Old 10-28-2008, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,552 times
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(The edit feature on this site won't function for me either . . . )

I really want to add this clear statement relevant to the ultimate salvation of all:

"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." (Revelation 5:13)

Doesn't leave anything out!!!

(Now the edit works again! Sheesh!)
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Old 10-28-2008, 03:39 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,552 times
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I know truth is not determined by what the majority of people think; but more that half of ordinary people who consider themselves Christians do not believe in eternal torture. As well, more than 70% of professional "Christian" ministers do not believe in the doctrine either. This is from polls reported by, if I remember correctly, Hank Hanegraff who was lamenting the fact (because he does believe such idiocy.)
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Old 10-28-2008, 03:43 PM
 
3,086 posts, read 5,563,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
I'm getting the feeling that perhaps an all out war should be proclaimed against the doctrine of eternal punishment.
1 Pet. 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Don't worry, little elmer.. that war against truth has already been proclaimed, and is in full battle as we speak. The devil beat you to it! If you want to join him, go ahead...

As Christians, we need to be more sober and vigilant.. watching and praying, for truly the war of deception against truth is intensifying as we get closer to the end of time. Satan is being loosed.. the camp of the saints is being surrounded.

But lift up your heads! Redemption draws near!
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Old 10-28-2008, 03:50 PM
 
3,576 posts, read 454,230 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
(The edit feature on this site won't function for me either . . . )

I really want to add this clear statement relevant to the ultimate salvation of all:

"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." (Revelation 5:13)

Doesn't leave anything out!!!
Just thought this needed to be bold - it makes me think of the song How Great Thou Art
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Old 10-28-2008, 06:48 PM
 
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Ok so you say the majority of Christians don't believe in hell? Then what's the point of doing anything Christians do to avoid hell?
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Old 10-28-2008, 07:19 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,750,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
Ok so you say the majority of Christians don't believe in hell? Then what's the point of doing anything Christians do to avoid hell?
There IS a hell, and no matter how hard they try to make it go away by re-interpreting scripture....hell is real, hell is full of fire and it is eternal. As in forever and ever. There is no "eventual restoration of all" as some would try to lead you to believe. It's just another one of Satan's tools to try and fool the masses into believing that all will be ok no matter what you do in this life. It's not Biblical, it's false teaching and it's heretical.

No matter what anyone tries to tell you, we all have two choices according to God's Word, the Bible.
Repent, ask Jesus to become your Savior and live a Godly life and spend an eternity in heaven with God
OR
Deny God, live for the devil and yourself and spend an eternity in hell.
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