Pagan influence in christianity (beliefs, ritual, Jesus, worship)

[JamesMRohde]

As far as things believed or done of pagan origin, they are myriad in Institutional Christianity. There once was a religion that existed for about 300 years that had no special holy men (priests), no holy places (temples) and no holy objects for veneration (idols). We were the priests. We were the temple . . .

THE ORIGIN OF UNSCRIPTURAL MODERN CHURCH PRACTICES
a short select list

The Sunday Morning order of Worship Evolved from Gregory's Mass in th 6th century to the revisions made by Luther, Calvin, the Puritans, the Free Church tradition, the Methodists, the Frontier-Revivalists, and the Pentecostals. The N.T. presents a "round-table structure" as the normal way for believers to function under the headship of Christ when they gather together. The "lecture structure" is for beginning or special meetings.

The Modern Sermon Borrowed from the Greek sophists, who were masters at oratory and rhetoric. John Chrysostom (347-407) and Augustine (354-430) popularized the Greco-Roman homily (sermon) and made it a central part of the Christian Faith. Except for special occasions of more like prophetic addresses, no Biblical warrant for doing, certainly not every time we meet by the same paid man, which is against every member participation.

The Church Building Started by Constantine around 327 AD, The first church buildings were patterned after the Roman basilicas which were modeled after Greek temples. In the N.T., the early church and even today again for the majority worldwide, the home is normally where to meet.

The Pastor's Chair (a throne, elevated on a platform above the ordinary believers), Tax-Exempt Status, Stained Glass Windows, The Steeple, The Pulpit, The Pew

The Single Bishop (predecessor of the modern pastor) Possibly originating with Ignatius of Antioch around 115 AD though the earliest copy of his letters is from about 1,000 years later. The model of on-bishop-rule did not prevail in the churches until the third century. I don't care how knowledgeable and gifted the man on stage is. He's not the body of Christ; and, JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!!

The "Covering" Doctrine Cyprian of Carthage (200-258), a former pagan orator. Revived under Juan Carlos Oritz from Argentina and the "Fort Lauderdale Five" from the USA, creating the so-called "Shepherding-Discipleship Movement" in 1970's.

Hierarchical Leadership Brought into the church by Constantine in the 4th century. This was the leadership style of the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and Romans. In the Church there are no other mediators. God, Who is JEALOUS, relates to each of us directly. Even if it is in someone else, it is God Himself with Whom we are dealing. Jesus suffered and died in order to bring us into direct intimacy with God. Now other men are inserted between us and God and they expect us to pay them for it! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Clergy and Laity "Laity" first appears in the writings of Clement of Rome (d.100). "Clergy" first appears in Tertullian (160-225). By the 3rd century, Christian leaders were universally called "clergy."

Modern Ordination Evolved from the 2nd century to the 4th. It was taken from the Roman custom of appointing men to civil office. The idea of the ordained minister as the"holy man of God" can be traced to Augustine (293-373), Gregory of Nazianzus (329-389), and Chrysostom (347-407).

The Title "Pastor" Roman Catholic priests who became Protestant ministers were not universally called "Pastors" until the 18th century under the influence of Lutheran Pietists.

Various points about costumes, special clothing, and dressing up could be made.

The Worship Team Calvary Chapel in 1965, patterned after the secular rock concert.

Tithing Did not become a widespread Christian practice until the 8th century. The tithe was taken from the 10% rent-charge used in the Roman Empire and later justified by the Old Testament. While much is said about giving, nothing is said about tithing after the resurrection. Tithing says: "10% for God and 90% for me." While the New Covenant mentality according to Jesus is: "Any man among you that forsaketh not all that he hath cannot be my disciple."

The Lord's Supper Condensed From a Full "Agape" Meal to Only the Cup and the Bread The late 2nd century as a result of pagan ritual influences.

(Excerpted from a list by Frank Viola with my additional comments. This concerns orthopraxy. And what of orthodoxy...?)

[forest beekeeper]

Originally Posted by JamesMRohde

As far as things believed or done of pagan origin, they are myriad in Institutional Christianity. There once was a religion that existed for about 300 years that had no special holy men (priests), no holy places (temples) and no holy objects for veneration (idols). We were the priests. We were the temple . . .

THE ORIGIN OF UNSCRIPTURAL MODERN CHURCH PRACTICES
a short select list

The Sunday Morning order of Worship Evolved from Gregory's Mass in th 6th century to the revisions made by Luther, Calvin, the Puritans, the Free Church tradition, the Methodists, the Frontier-Revivalists, and the Pentecostals. The N.T. presents a "round-table structure" as the normal way for believers to function under the headship of Christ when they gather together. The "lecture structure" is for beginning or special meetings.

The Modern Sermon Borrowed from the Greek sophists, who were masters at oratory and rhetoric. John Chrysostom (347-407) and Augustine (354-430) popularized the Greco-Roman homily (sermon) and made it a central part of the Christian Faith. Except for special occasions of more like prophetic addresses, no Biblical warrant for doing, certainly not every time we meet by the same paid man, which is against every member participation.

The Church Building Started by Constantine around 327 AD, The first church buildings were patterned after the Roman basilicas which were modeled after Greek temples. In the N.T., the early church and even today again for the majority worldwide, the home is normally where to meet.

The Pastor's Chair (a throne, elevated on a platform above the ordinary believers), Tax-Exempt Status, Stained Glass Windows, The Steeple, The Pulpit, The Pew

The Single Bishop (predecessor of the modern pastor) Possibly originating with Ignatius of Antioch around 115 AD though the earliest copy of his letters is from about 1,000 years later. The model of on-bishop-rule did not prevail in the churches until the third century. I don't care how knowledgeable and gifted the man on stage is. He's not the body of Christ; and, JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!!

The "Covering" Doctrine Cyprian of Carthage (200-258), a former pagan orator. Revived under Juan Carlos Oritz from Argentina and the "Fort Lauderdale Five" from the USA, creating the so-called "Shepherding-Discipleship Movement" in 1970's.

Hierarchical Leadership Brought into the church by Constantine in the 4th century. This was the leadership style of the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and Romans. In the Church there are no other mediators. God, Who is JEALOUS, relates to each of us directly. Even if it is in someone else, it is God Himself with Whom we are dealing. Jesus suffered and died in order to bring us into direct intimacy with God. Now other men are inserted between us and God and they expect us to pay them for it! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Clergy and Laity "Laity" first appears in the writings of Clement of Rome (d.100). "Clergy" first appears in Tertullian (160-225). By the 3rd century, Christian leaders were universally called "clergy."

Modern Ordination Evolved from the 2nd century to the 4th. It was taken from the Roman custom of appointing men to civil office. The idea of the ordained minister as the"holy man of God" can be traced to Augustine (293-373), Gregory of Nazianzus (329-389), and Chrysostom (347-407).

The Title "Pastor" Roman Catholic priests who became Protestant ministers were not universally called "Pastors" until the 18th century under the influence of Lutheran Pietists.

Various points about costumes, special clothing, and dressing up could be made.

The Worship Team Calvary Chapel in 1965, patterned after the secular rock concert.

Tithing Did not become a widespread Christian practice until the 8th century. The tithe was taken from the 10% rent-charge used in the Roman Empire and later justified by the Old Testament. While much is said about giving, nothing is said about tithing after the resurrection. Tithing says: "10% for God and 90% for me." While the New Covenant mentality according to Jesus is: "Any man among you that forsaketh not all that he hath cannot be my disciple."

The Lord's Supper Condensed From a Full "Agape" Meal to Only the Cup and the Bread The late 2nd century as a result of pagan ritual influences.

(Excerpted from a list by Frank Viola with my additional comments. This concerns orthopraxy. And what of orthodoxy...?)

Very interesting.

[Huckleberry3911948]

Originally Posted by JerZ

That's not true. Unless by "just" you mean a revival at least two hundred years ago of "rituals" and "spells" blended with prayers that had only just ended in about 1700 anyway (as the Black Death was dying down). Europeans brought over their "superstitious" beliefs with them...as well as stories about monsters, ghosts, etc. and even pagan blend stories like King Arthur.

It's somewhat more mainstream now, but name me the European-originated family that didn't have a Grandma who just knew that if you rubbed a potato on your wart under a full moon, the wart would go away; or that bread started on a Sunday would fall flat rather than rising; or that if you saw certain things or ate certain foods your unborn child would have a defect that mirrored it. Or believed in "banshees" and other supernatural beings. Or told fairytales about witches and monsters and magic.


Now if you're talking about neopaganism--with an actual spiritual panthenon--yes, that's somewhat newer. It's only about 50 years old now. (Where's that rolling-eyes emoticon?) So if you can count that as new...particularly to those of us who aren't even 50 yet, and therefore never saw it as "the new thing"...Anyway, let's not forget that Christianity is one of the newest mainstream religions by comparison. It's far predated by Judaism (obviously), it's predated by Hinduism, it's predated by spiritual (but not necessarily god-centric) growth systems like Buddhism. And at one time Christianity was brand-new. The same compassion I'm sure you wish your fellow Christian was shown at that time, would come in VERY handy here with this newer paganism-as-a-religious-base period. I should hope we all have come a bit farther than we were 2000 years ago. And is it particularly "Christian" to spread misinformation about and talk down another's beliefs?

How would you feel about Christianity being called a flash in the pan and being compared to the new hot chick in school that everybody wanted to --- but that it would wear off eventually?

I'm seeing this utter disrespect and incredibly uncharitable attitude on the JW thread, too. Have some respect, please.

demand for respect for voodoo black magic?
what for voodoo?? --for the manipulation of others to make them ill or die with the intention of aquiring their wordly goods their wife girlfriend or money.
respect for evil. force people thru group auto suggestion and or drugs to have sex with you or others. slaughtering entire rooms full of animals while the "priest" has sex with the woman about to be married.
did you think i just read a book or something?

[Morale Officer]

First, in reference to "The Bible Code," you can do that with any book as long as you know what you want to "plug in" for the answer, so the so called Bible Code isn't legit.
Second, If you are refering to Vatican City as "The Harlot" or whatever, please know that Vatican City IS NOT ROME. Vatican City is a country of its own...a City State. And as JamesMRohde said, it does not sit on 7 hills.
Third:

Christmas, Easter, New Years, Birthday celebrations, Mary worship, the trinity, the title of 'pope', lent, Sunday as a holy day

Mary Worship? I don't think so. Please do some study and speak to those more "in the know" before speaking. Last time I checked, neither myself, my family, or any other of my Catholic brethern worship the Blessed Virgin Mary. As far as Christmas and Easter, eh...I can see where the pagan influence comes from, but I can also see why things were done the way they were (trying to intice more pagans to convert). Sunday as the "Holy Day," well, that can be argued as well because depending on what calendar you look at, some start on the week on Monday making Sunday the 7th day, but the main reasoning on this was that it was the 3rd day...the day that Jesus rose from the dead and fulfilled the scriptures (kind of goes back to the discussion on Creeds of the Church), which was giving us the forgiveness of our sins (because Jesus couldn't just Die, He had to rise up from the dead for the scriptures to be complete and our sins forgiven). I won't get into the "Trinity" thing because I am by far NOT a Theologian and the rest, I'm just going to leave go.

[LogicIsYourFriend]

The concept of Jesus is very pagan. God impregnating a mortal woman, the fantastical feats that helped humanity, the death and resurrection... These are all what Ancient Greeks knew Hercules for. Why don't more people worship Hercules?

[grannynancy]

I guess I would say God can turn anything to carry his message. The fact that the Church survived and thrived is testament to Christianity being able to infilitrate and co-opt that which was not Christian before.

Nobody would disagree that modern liturgical practice and the calendar has roots in pagan practices.

Does that make it evil? Yes if THAT is what you worship, but to me it is merely a tool to bring God's word. The liturgy helps me focus and be receptive to the Word of God.
The liturgical year takes me through the life and ministry of Christ. It is tradition - that ties me to Christians over a thousand years ago. I think it meets a human need, to see predictablity and cycles. THe ancients were keen observers of nature because they were subject to the forces of nature in ways we cannot understand. But GOD created the forces and cycles of nature - why NOT use them to HIS glory?

It would be evil if a liturgical churchgoer somehow thought that those who do not celebrate Christmas or Easter were *less* than someone who did not or that the celebrations of themselves had redemptive value. But to say they are evil?

[bluepacific]

Originally Posted by meerkat2

Thanks for your reply,

On the website, probably another page than what I linked to they talk about the names of Jesus and Christ and God and that those have roots in pagan worship and were adopted more because they were easy for pagans to relate to - just out of curiosity do you use Yahuweh/Yahushua or Jesus/God?

Jesus/Yahushua said he came in his fathers name and was not received but if someone will come in his own name him you will receive. His Fathers name is not God that is a title for any god. Yahushua means Yah is salvation - names meant things to the hebrews also to Jesus/Yahushua, he renamed several people.

http://www.iahushua.com/ST-RP/glory.htm#"JESUS"

Actually I have seen several discussions on the subject of various names being debated back and forth , how you pronounce this and how you pronounce that. Should you or should'nt you pronounce the mysterious name. What the name really means. What this theologian says as opposed to that theologian.

Mostly I use English pronuciation. I call Jesus by his name Jesus if that is what you are refering to. I understand that there were different spellings to his name, but the same also goes for spelling of every single name in the Bible. Not one person can correctly say how we should say or pronounce any name in the Bible for sure. However , that does'nt mean we don't use the names. Even modern names today are spelled differently and pronounced differently in various countries around the world. Whatever pronunciation works for whatever language you speak I believe works.

I've never heard of any reference to those names being of pagan origin. However , I do remember the first time I ever heard the name Jehovah, I actually did think it was some pagan god or something, but I was a kid then who always thought God's name was God. Obviously I was'nt alone.

But there seems to be a debate about the words here. As far as God's name and it's pronunciation, Hebrew Scholars generally favour "Yahweh" as being the most likely correct way to spell it. They point out that the abreviated form of the name is Yah (Jah in the Latinized form), as at Psalm 89:8 and also in the very famous expression chanted by many pentecostal and other Evangelicals, Ha- lelu- Yah´ (which simply means 'Praise Jah you people') Another interesting thing is that other forms of the name like Yehoh´, Yoh , Yah , Ya´hu can also be found in the Hebrew spellings of these names, Jehoshaphat, Joshaphat, Jehosh, Jehoram, Jehoachin, Jehoaz, Shephatiah, etc can all be derived from "Yahweh". There does'nt seem to be any unanimous agreement among the experts either, as many come up with various other forms of favourite spellings and pronunciations, such as "Yahuwa" , "Yahuah" or even "Yehuah"

Since there is no certain attainable agreement on any of the pronunciations, it's a lame argument to say that we should'nt ever use the name. The most common acceptable English form which I believe William Tyndale helped the english reader with is Jehovah. If rules are made here not to pronounce it because we don't know for sure the correct version, then that same lame excuse should be used on all the other names of the Bible. For example, Hebrew Scholars believe Jeremiah should be "Yir- meyah´, Isaiah would become, Yesha´ Ya´hu, and Jesus would either be Yeho- shu`a´(as in Hebrew) or i-e-sous´(as in Greek). The point is that the purpose of any word is to transmit thoughts. In this case the English pronunciation, Jehovah is commonly used with reference to the true God of the Bible for people who are english speaking. Where I live in Europe you can find this latin form of the spelling all over the place on Cathedrals, Statues, etc. In fact here in Göteborg, Sweden there is a statue with it's Latin spelling in the title of the statue of Karl IX "Kopparmärra" statue.

Back to those websites and pagan doctrines which have been Christianized by the modern churches. I think Hislop has some good info, but he pays too much attention to only the Catholic church. The research on the origins of all those doctrines is truthful and fairly accurate, but he forgets that as a Methodist (protestant), his church believe many of the same things. It could also be pointed out that most other religions like Islam, Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, etc also have identical beliefs, but just a difference in many of the details and names. When God confused the languages back there at the tower of Babel, those rebelious people took all those false religious concepts with them to the ends of the earth. It's up to each individual to decide for themselves whether or not a belief is acceptable to God or not acceptable. The gage for this is not what you or I have to say on the matter, but what does God's word the Bible have to say. For people of other faiths outside Christianity, then they have to test it out some other way for themselves.

For Christians we have the historical record of how God dealt with his chosen people of ancient Israel. Paul said that their recorded history was an example for us to learn from. Romans 15:4 & 1 Corinthians 10:11

There are literally hundreds of examples of accounts in the Bible where the Israelite God Jehovah punished the Jews for contaminating pure true worship of him with pagan practices. My favourite is a well known account of the Israelites in the wilderness waiting for Moses to come down from Mount Sinai. They thought he was taking too long , so they had aaron make a molten statue of a Golden Calf. Apparently they borrowed that pagan concept from Egyptian religion. They had been repeated told and warned against Idolatry. But to make it seem okay they gave their celebration the title "a festival to Jehovah". Giving the pagan Calf worship the name of Jehovah dod not make it acceptable in God's eyes. Exodus 32:4-10

Hence everyone has to gage various beliefs and how they are viewed, not by them, me or anyone else, but by God own word the Bible. Like many of the Israelites who only wanted to have a good time, many today simply wish to have a good time and fun filled event. Still they have to ask the question, Does God approve of this???

[JerZ]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948

demand for respect for voodoo black magic?
what for voodoo?? --for the manipulation of others to make them ill or die with the intention of aquiring their wordly goods their wife girlfriend or money.
respect for evil. force people thru group auto suggestion and or drugs to have sex with you or others. slaughtering entire rooms full of animals while the "priest" has sex with the woman about to be married.
did you think i just read a book or something?

Oh! Oh heck no! You were talking about voodoo??? I don't go that route.

I must have totally misunderstood you because I thought you were talking about paganism/neopaganism in general. I don't know whether voodoo even falls under that umbrella. I don't know much about it. It scares the sh i te out of me, to be honest.

As an aside, yes, to tie in this practice with "all" "pagan" practices is disrespectful. Trust me when I tell you that not all pagan religions include slaughtering animals and having sex with virgins. In fact...very few I know of do. If any...

Maybe some former pagan rituals (excluding voodoo) included animal slaughter...a very long time ago. Just as your own religion included animal slaughter, plus burning so the odor would go up to God to inhale. Doesn't that sound barbaric too? But I don't tie Christians in with very ancient Judaism because at one time, animals were slaughtered and burned. Please show pagans the same courtesy. As far as the sex with unmarrieds go...sure, in a male pagan's dreams. :P: (Just as in many a non-pagan male's dreams.............)

Trust me. No virginal sex around here. Unless they're hiding it all from me. Then again, this being SoCal, maybe they just can't find any virgins.

[JerZ]

Originally Posted by grannynancy

I guess I would say God can turn anything to carry his message. The fact that the Church survived and thrived is testament to Christianity being able to infilitrate and co-opt that which was not Christian before.

Nobody would disagree that modern liturgical practice and the calendar has roots in pagan practices.

Does that make it evil? Yes if THAT is what you worship, but to me it is merely a tool to bring God's word. The liturgy helps me focus and be receptive to the Word of God.
The liturgical year takes me through the life and ministry of Christ. It is tradition - that ties me to Christians over a thousand years ago. I think it meets a human need, to see predictablity and cycles. THe ancients were keen observers of nature because they were subject to the forces of nature in ways we cannot understand. But GOD created the forces and cycles of nature - why NOT use them to HIS glory?

It would be evil if a liturgical churchgoer somehow thought that those who do not celebrate Christmas or Easter were *less* than someone who did not or that the celebrations of themselves had redemptive value. But to say they are evil?

I also think if certain things overlap that doesn't mean one thing is necessarily "like" the other. In other words...some forms of worship, both pagan and Christian, are similar just because we're human beings. Singing...offering things in various ways...decorating our homes in certain ways, celebrating holidays...influence aside, there is bound to be some overlap.

[technobarbie]

Originally Posted by technobarbie

I find this interesting and ironic. I won't get into the ironic part, because this is a Christian board. These practices you speak of predates Christianity by thousands of years, although in a different form. I'll just point to Egypt as one example. I think all Christians would agree Egypt bleeds magic, occult, spells and paganism. They are many more, especially around the 16th century, but I'll stop there.

OK this was stupid on my part - the poster said American.