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Old 11-24-2008, 07:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
I've wondered about certain characteristics of God: I hear he is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent/all-loving. It seems like these are mutually exclusive, given our world.

An omnipotent and omniscient god would be able to change the rules so that innocent people did not suffer. If he were all-loving, he would care and do this. People say "it's for the greater good eventually," but omnipotence means he controls the means and ends, and can change the means if he wanted to.
First you have to understand that the world we see before us is under the curse of death and sin, because of mankind's disobedience and turning away from God. Sure He could "change the rules", but then He would be lying and contradicting himself, based upon what he's told us in his word. He cannot act outside of his character. His plan has been in place since the beginning. He does not violate his own plan, as that would also go against his character.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and the rain falls on the just and the unjust equally. He never promised us a life without suffering on this side of eternity. He prepares us and tells us we will face trials, struggles, pain and suffering, just as non-believers and if not more so because we follow Him. What He does promise is that He is with us and through him we can overcome the misery of this world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
The only way to justify an all-loving and omniscient god would be to say he is not omnipotent, and therefore can't change that which breaks his heart.
No, I don't agree with this. He could .. the potential is there. He chooses not to based upon how He has set up the laws of his creation. Also, there will come a time where he will make everything right and perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
If he is omnipotent and all-loving, then the only reason he would not choose to change the rules would be because he cannot see how the world would turn out, thus not omniscient.
No, I don't agree with this either. He knows how it will all turn out in the end... with him reigning as King of kings and Lord of lords and death and sin cast away forever and ever .. Amen. He has told us this in his word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
So, given our world, where there is no justice in who suffers and who does not without human laws, a creator of such a world can be only two of the three characteristics at any given time. If all three were true, we would live in a perfect world.
All three are true and upon Jesus' return, paradise will be restored. Right now, what we see is the whole of creation groaning under the weight of sin that entered into the creation. What we see is not what God sees. We see things as if looking through a glass half darkly. Everything is distorted. God sees everything crystal clear, just as we will once he returns. The veil will be lifted and we'll have complete understanding of the whys.

It is the removal of sin from this creation that we all anticipate and which will come to pass ... on God's time, not ours. If he would step down into our realm right now to wipe out sin and death and suffereing just as everyone wants, but which few understand also includes his passing judgement on all of mankind, would we be prepared to meet him and face his judgement?
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Old 11-24-2008, 08:20 PM
 
37,494 posts, read 25,232,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
First you have to understand that the world we see before us is under the curse of death and sin, because of mankind's disobedience and turning away from God. Sure He could "change the rules", but then He would be lying and contradicting himself, based upon what he's told us in his word. He cannot act outside of his character. His plan has been in place since the beginning. He does not violate his own plan, as that would also go against his character.
So . . . all this horror and misery and abomination and evil is because he "cannot act outside of his character" . . . which is vengeful and angry over eating an APPLE??!!?

Quote:
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and the rain falls on the just and the unjust equally. He never promised us a life without suffering on this side of eternity. He prepares us and tells us we will face trials, struggles, pain and suffering, just as non-believers and if not more so because we follow Him. What He does promise is that He is with us and through him we can overcome the misery of this world.
So . . . I was a sinner and had "fallen short of the glory of God" just as soon as I left the womb???? Don't I get a say in accepting responsibility for that evil Adam and Eve eating that APPLE before I was even a twinkle in my father's eye?
Quote:
All three are true and upon Jesus' return, paradise will be restored. Right now, what we see is the whole of creation groaning under the weight of sin that entered into the creation.
All that sin causing creation to groan under its weight from eating an APPLE????
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. . . would we be prepared to meet him and face his judgement?
Bring it on!!!
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Old 11-24-2008, 09:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
So . . . all this horror and misery and abomination and evil is because he "cannot act outside of his character" . . . which is vengeful and angry over eating an APPLE??!!?

So . . . I was a sinner and had "fallen short of the glory of God" just as soon as I left the womb???? Don't I get a say in accepting responsibility for that evil Adam and Eve eating that APPLE before I was even a twinkle in my father's eye? All that sin causing creation to groan under its weight from eating an APPLE????
Bring it on!!!
Who said it's an apple? That's speculation. It could have been any type of fruit. The bible doesn't specifically say it was an apple.

I believe you're missing the point. It wasn't over simply eating the fruit. It was about choices... choosing to obey God and His word or choosing to disobey, turn from God and do it man's way. It's wasn't a blind choice. They were well aware of the consequences of their actions. God was not vengeful. He told them what they could and could not do. He told them the consequences for disobeying him. He followed through on his discipline. If he would not have, he would be a liar... contrary to his character. You think it harsh, too extreme .. yet what understanding of God's ways does mankind have to talk back to God, to say to their creator, that the punishment was too severe? For all we know, from our tiny human perspective, this is the lenient punishment.

I feel you need to deepen your understanding of God's word. When a child is born, all they inherit is the tendency to sin and a "disconnect" from their creator. That is all. IMO, it is the cycle of sin that a child is born into that can cause a child to suffer. But certainly, as children grow, they begin making choices that go against God.

I do believe in an age of accountability -- meaning there is a period of time before a child reaches a point in their life where they understand in their own mind the difference between right and wrong where they cannot be held responsible for their actions. But there is an age where children do understand the difference between right and wrong and will be held to answer for their actions, just as we all will. However, I also believe God's character demonstrates mercy and kindness and justice. He's told us in his word all will be judged according to their own heart and their own understanding.

However, every mature person has committed sin of their own accord and must be held responsible for those actions... personal accountability. You can't just blame Adam for the transgressions you commit on your own. And yes, the cycle of sin we see today -- magnified and amplified -- began with Adam's disobedience (not just simply eating the fruit). Generation after generation has built upon the previous years of sin and neglect and actions that has accumulated into what we see today. As more and more people turn from God and do their own thing, it will keep getting worse and worse until God returns and sets things right again.
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Old 11-24-2008, 10:08 PM
 
37,494 posts, read 25,232,088 times
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Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
I believe you're missing the point. It wasn't over simply eating the fruit. It was about choices... choosing to obey God and His word or choosing to disobey, turn from God and do it man's way. It's wasn't a blind choice. They were well aware of the consequences of their actions. God was not vengeful. He told them what they could and could not do. He told them the consequences for disobeying him. He followed through on his discipline. If he would not have, he would be a liar... contrary to his character. You think it harsh, too extreme .. yet what understanding of God's ways does mankind have to talk back to God, to say to their creator, that the punishment was too severe? For all we know, from our tiny human perspective, this is the lenient punishment.
This is what bothers me, Mams . . . Adam and Eve had just been born . . . they were mere infant souls . . . am I to believe that God would punish them so severely (and all their descendants) without having given them the time to develop the accountability you refer to? Am I to believe that it will be an ETERNAL punishment . . . if their descendants don't shape up and toe the line like good little soldiers or slaves/subjects to such an arrogant and overbearing Master?
Quote:
However, I also believe God's character demonstrates mercy and kindness and justice. He's told us in his word all will be judged according to their own heart and their own understanding.
I'm sorry if I am obtuse . . . but I don't see this mercy and kindness you speak of in such a rigid, overbearing, autocratic Master. I prefer the one I meet in meditation . . . who is kind, loving and accepting with no hint of anger or punitive motive. I hope you are wrong.
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Old 11-24-2008, 11:23 PM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,374,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
First you have to understand that the world we see before us is under the curse of death and sin, because of mankind's disobedience and turning away from God. Sure He could "change the rules", but then He would be lying and contradicting himself, based upon what he's told us in his word. He cannot act outside of his character. His plan has been in place since the beginning. He does not violate his own plan, as that would also go against his character.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and the rain falls on the just and the unjust equally. He never promised us a life without suffering on this side of eternity. He prepares us and tells us we will face trials, struggles, pain and suffering, just as non-believers and if not more so because we follow Him. What He does promise is that He is with us and through him we can overcome the misery of this world.



No, I don't agree with this. He could .. the potential is there. He chooses not to based upon how He has set up the laws of his creation. Also, there will come a time where he will make everything right and perfect.



No, I don't agree with this either. He knows how it will all turn out in the end... with him reigning as King of kings and Lord of lords and death and sin cast away forever and ever .. Amen. He has told us this in his word.



All three are true and upon Jesus' return, paradise will be restored. Right now, what we see is the whole of creation groaning under the weight of sin that entered into the creation. What we see is not what God sees. We see things as if looking through a glass half darkly. Everything is distorted. God sees everything crystal clear, just as we will once he returns. The veil will be lifted and we'll have complete understanding of the whys.

It is the removal of sin from this creation that we all anticipate and which will come to pass ... on God's time, not ours. If he would step down into our realm right now to wipe out sin and death and suffereing just as everyone wants, but which few understand also includes his passing judgement on all of mankind, would we be prepared to meet him and face his judgement?
But if he is tied to his own rules and can't break them, he is not omnipotent.

If he doesn't use his omnipotence to stop suffering, he is not omnibenevolent.
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Old 11-25-2008, 12:06 AM
 
37,494 posts, read 25,232,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
But if he is tied to his own rules and can't break them, he is not omnipotent.

If he doesn't use his omnipotence to stop suffering, he is not omnibenevolent.
Which is precisely why all the "Omni's" . . . which are human creations . . . have little relevance or importance except to those who DEMAND that their God have these attributes . . . or would not be "qualified" to be God.
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Old 11-25-2008, 12:07 AM
 
Location: southern california
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life truth love
principle soul mind substance truth
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Old 11-25-2008, 12:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
God is worthy of our love, trust, obedience and worship. Why? Because he is God. It is those very attributes that make him God which makes him worthy. I just wanted to list some of the characteristics of God, with supporting scriptures, and then see what everyone else can come up with. List the characteristic and the scripture that provides it. I believe by reminding ourselves of God's characteristics it can help further our understanding of God, thereby our need for him....

Characteristics of God:

JUST --

Deuteronomy 32:4 (NIV) He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

TRUTH --

Numbers 23:19 (NIV) God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

I Samuel 15:29 (NIV) He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind.
i'm not trying to be rude or anything but imo i think when u say " God" that sums up his charater and sends an individual in a mind state of who god is, unless the person is an atheist,
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Old 11-25-2008, 07:51 AM
 
Location: RV Park
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
So . . . I was a sinner and had "fallen short of the glory of God" just as soon as I left the womb???? Don't I get a say in accepting responsibility for that evil Adam and Eve eating that APPLE before I was even a twinkle in my father's eye?
We can defend our innocence all we want, but the fact is we were indeed infected from the moment we were conceived. We've all seen toddlers grasp the concept of "Mine!" and "No!" without being trained in the matter - that is adamic rebellion 101.

Who submits to authority naturally? Who willingly lays down their life for their friend, let alone their enemy? The concept of goodness on a human level is sickening in light of the not-just-agape, but holy love that God displays.

Then we come to holiness...this is not "doing good", as that is all humans are capable of. The Hebrew word, "to be holy" is quadash, and is derived from the root word qud, which means to cut or separate. God is absolutely separated above all his creatures and is exalted above in infinite majesty; we cannot attain such a level from performance or lack of indictment.
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Old 11-25-2008, 07:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
God is absolutely separated above all his creatures and is exalted above in infinite majesty; we cannot attain such a level from performance or lack of indictment.
How can children be separated from their parent in so complete a manner . . . their whole purpose is to become like their parent and inherit . . . not grovel in fear of punishment or worship for rewards.
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