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Old 11-25-2008, 09:18 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,589,052 times
Reputation: 4469

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
How can children be separated from their parent in so complete a manner . . . their whole purpose is to become like their parent and inherit . . . not grovel in fear of punishment or worship for rewards.
The comments were made in response to the "original sin" concept - our sin condition - which yes, we were born with - alienates us from God, but through the sacrifice of His Son Jesus, payment was made once and for all. All died with the original Adam (man), and all were made alive in the second Adam (1 Cor 15:22).

Last edited by little elmer; 11-25-2008 at 09:19 AM.. Reason: oops
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Old 11-25-2008, 10:03 AM
 
Location: where i belong
414 posts, read 696,680 times
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Post Hasn't there been ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
How can children be separated from their parent in so complete a manner . . . their whole purpose is to become like their parent and inherit . . . not grovel in fear of punishment or worship for rewards.

... in ... from the beginning, the word ....?
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Old 11-25-2008, 10:38 AM
 
37,661 posts, read 25,371,376 times
Reputation: 5865
Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
The comments were made in response to the "original sin" concept - our sin condition - which yes, we were born with - alienates us from God, but through the sacrifice of His Son Jesus, payment was made once and for all. All died with the original Adam (man), and all were made alive in the second Adam (1 Cor 15:22).
Hardly sounds like a loving way to treat your children . . . payment? for what? being children and not adults? We are heirs of God, as Paul states in Romans 8:14,

. . . For whoever are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Now you have not received a spirit of bondage so as to be again in fear, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons . . . But if we are sons, we are heirs also; heirs indeed of God and joint heirs with Christ.
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Old 11-25-2008, 11:12 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,589,052 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Hardly sounds like a loving way to treat your children . . . payment? for what? being children and not adults? We are heirs of God, as Paul states in Romans 8:14,

. . . For whoever are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Now you have not received a spirit of bondage so as to be again in fear, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons . . . But if we are sons, we are heirs also; heirs indeed of God and joint heirs with Christ.
Paul was writing to "all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints" (Rom 1:7) at the time - though I agree that all will made subject to Him and that His blood will not suffer loss, the dispensation has not yet been carried out, imo.

But it's a rock solid guarantee that it will be.

This from Ray Prinzing:
Quote:
He who is our God, our Father, is the Father of spirits, we came from His bosom, and we shall not know the utmost of contentment until we have returned again into the full reality of His presence. He hath subjected creation to the bondage of vanity for a purpose, and He also has fully planned for redemption, a glorious release which rightfully belongs to the children of God. In the outworking of this purpose He also hath chosen those who are to be the "firstfruits" of His grace, who in turn shall be used to help bless the latter-born. The choosing and marking out of these elect, election according to grace, is sovereignly His, with a view that we should be HOLY...
Holy, meaning, to be separate, or set apart. Not only separated from something, such as from the world, the flesh, etc., but also to be set apart into something. Sanctification is not only FROM, but also an INTO― that we might be prepared to be partakers of a new dimension and glory. "But know that the Lord hath set apart him that is godly FOR HIMSELF." [Psalm 4:3].

Last edited by little elmer; 11-25-2008 at 11:44 AM.. Reason: addition
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Old 11-25-2008, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,333 posts, read 2,449,204 times
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Default Infinite and finite characteristics.

It is obvious that the infinite characteristics we have as being Him just as much aa we would as wew were above. It is very out of control. And besides what would we believe in god being that way for the concrete instant He would be him through any time for God is always eternal in performance of actions for our duty participating. SO in awarness he comes down from above in all Mercy never as per Being tempted (a verse from scripture: viz. Kierkegaard).

The finite characteristics we have as not being God. The perfect finite belongs to His effort apart in the universal concept of prefect beauty as ultimate Good which all man is doing ... or something like elsewhere from our free will when We faulter. Like the song of Sarah Mclaughlin: it is simple: we have faultered.

WHy can we regard that in love our sins are but left of the Grace; and we deserve to forgive each other; no matter what God may even think at the time.

We forgive each other, and still drive the car more when the oil price has gone up; but maybe if that were the infinite characteristic of God in all of us at the time: that way We have crime and punishment.
It should be regarded that driving cars at certain times of traffic jams and smog be regarded the unforgiven replacement for terrorism. That is the true terorism or mass killer in the New Millenium: driving the car ad libeitum; lie it came ou of eternity.
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:45 PM
 
1,932 posts, read 4,266,076 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
But if he is tied to his own rules and can't break them, he is not omnipotent.
He could break them, but he chooses not to in most instances. Why would he purposely choose not to? It does not mean he is any less powerful or doesn't have the power to do it. He chooses not to because then he would be going against his own word, contradicting himself or lying, which he can do neither.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
If he doesn't use his omnipotence to stop suffering, he is not omnibenevolent.
He does stop suffering. Every day, in many different ways. And there will come a time where He will end death and suffering once and for all time... but on His time table, not ours.

Last edited by mams1559; 12-10-2008 at 11:44 PM..
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Old 12-10-2008, 11:06 PM
 
1,932 posts, read 4,266,076 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This is what bothers me, Mams . . . Adam and Eve had just been born . . . they were mere infant souls . . . am I to believe that God would punish them so severely (and all their descendants) without having given them the time to develop the accountability you refer to?
After reading this it seems there are many assumptions being made. It is my belief that Adam and Eve were created mature .. both in appearance and in spirituality. They walked with God through the garden. If anything, they would have been more spiritually developed than us because they were in the physical presence of the Lord. Also, we don't know exactly how long it was between the time of their creation and the time of their fall. Who is to say how much time is enough time to develop accountability or to understand the consequences spelled out for them directly from God's own lips?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Am I to believe that it will be an ETERNAL punishment . . . if their descendants don't shape up and toe the line like good little soldiers or slaves/subjects to such an arrogant and overbearing Master?
Arrogant and overbearing are your terms to describe God. That's your subjective opinion based upon your finite/limited knowledge and/or understanding of the infinite/unlimited God. That's not how he describes himself in his word, which is where I gain my understanding and knowledge of God's character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I'm sorry if I am obtuse . . . but I don't see this mercy and kindness you speak of in such a rigid, overbearing, autocratic Master. I prefer the one I meet in meditation . . . who is kind, loving and accepting with no hint of anger or punitive motive. I hope you are wrong.
Again, your subjective description of God is your personal view, both the negative and the positive adjectives envoked. You may not see the anger of God, but it does exist and it will be poured out one day just as his word describes.

God's motives are not punitive, but our actions that go against him are deserving of punishment. Every person has done, of their own accord, something that is an affront, a sin, to the very being that is God. God, being a completely holy being, will judge that sin accordingly. He offers us forgiveness and acceptance by Him through Jesus. Accepting Christ and following him and his teachings will blot out our sins and allow reconciliation with God. That is the mercy and kindness and love. Though we deserve death, he has offered us eternal life with him. All you have to do is trust and obey, for there's no other way.
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Old 12-10-2008, 11:16 PM
 
1,932 posts, read 4,266,076 times
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FORGIVING

Numbers 14:20 (NIV) - The LORD replied, "I have forgiven them, as you asked."

Luke 24:47 (NIV) - ...and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 10:43 (NIV) - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.

I John 2:12 (NIV) - I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
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Old 12-10-2008, 11:56 PM
 
37,661 posts, read 25,371,376 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
After reading this it seems there are many assumptions being made. It is my belief that Adam and Eve were created mature .. both in appearance and in spirituality. They walked with God through the garden. If anything, they would have been more spiritually developed than us because they were in the physical presence of the Lord. Also, we don't know exactly how long it was between the time of their creation and the time of their fall. Who is to say how much time is enough time to develop accountability or to understand the consequences spelled out for them directly from God's own lips?
There is unambiguous evidence of their lack of maturity and understanding . . . especially lack of knowledge of good and evil. How on earth were they supposed to be responsible for not doing evil when the distinction didn't even exist for them. Sorry . . . but I see nothing mature about a human being just mindlessly obeying a master forever . . . instead of maturing and becoming a responsible adult and choosing good over evil. You may continue to prefer to just be an obedient slave or servant following rules . . . but I have other aspirations.
Quote:
Arrogant and overbearing are your terms to describe God. That's your subjective opinion based upon your finite/limited knowledge and/or understanding of the infinite/unlimited God. That's not how he describes himself in his word, which is where I gain my understanding and knowledge of God's character.
The actions you attribute to God are overbearing and arrogant, as well as, stemming from human psychological weaknesses (like hate, wrath and vengeance, etc.). I don't ascribe them or believe in them because God does not possess human psychological weaknesses.
Quote:
Again, your subjective description of God is your personal view, both the negative and the positive adjectives envoked. You may not see the anger of God, but it does exist and it will be poured out one day just as his word describes.
Anger is unquestionably the result of human psychological weakness . . . it is not a theory . . . it is a fact. How could God be afflicted with such a weakness? I repeat . . . the God I see does not . . . but the one you describe fits my "subjective view" of Him.
Quote:
God's motives are not punitive, but our actions that go against him are deserving of punishment. Every person has done, of their own accord, something that is an affront, a sin, to the very being that is God. God, being a completely holy being, will judge that sin accordingly. He offers us forgiveness and acceptance by Him through Jesus. Accepting Christ and following him and his teachings will blot out our sins and allow reconciliation with God. That is the mercy and kindness and love. Though we deserve death, he has offered us eternal life with him. All you have to do is trust and obey, for there's no other way.
I believe there will be negative consequences for not following Jesus' example and attitudes . . . but the consequences have nothing to do with punishment. They are simply the natural result of pursuing the wrong attitude toward life and God and failing to become what we are supposed to become. Failure always carries consequences . . . but they aren't punishments. Only vindictive, vengeful humans deliberately inflict "punishments" . . . God doesn't. God tries to stop us from failing, period . . . it is entirely up to us because we have free will. If we become thorns instead of fruit . . . we end up where the thorns go, period . . . thorns simply don't belong with the fruit.
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Old 12-11-2008, 03:49 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,253,752 times
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Default He is wonderful...my Deliverer!

PSALMS 40:1-17
I waited patiently for the Lord;
And He inclined to me,
And heard my cry.
He also brought me up out of a horrible pit,
Out of the miry clay,
And set my feet upon a rock,
And established my steps.
He has put a new song in my mouth-
Praise to our God;
Many will see it and fear,
And will trust in the Lord.

Blessed is that man who makes the Lord his trust,
And does not respect the proud, nor such as turn
aside to lies.
Many, O Lord my God, are Your wonderful works
Which You have done;
And Your thoughts toward us
Cannot be recounted to You in order;
If I would declare and speak of them,
They are more than can be numbered.

Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
My ears have You opened.
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
Then I said, "Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart."

I have proclaimed the good news of righteousness
In the great assembly;
Indeed, I do not restrain my lips,
O Lord, You Yourself know.
I have not hidden Your righteousness within my
heart;
I have declared Your faithfulness and Your
salvation;
I have not concealed Your lovingkindness and Your
truth
From the great assembly.
Do not withhold Your tender mercies from me,
O Lord;
Let Your lovingkindness and Your truth continually
preserve me.
For innumerable evils have surrounded me;
My iniquities have overtaken me, so that I am not
able to look up;
They are more than the hairs of my head;
Therefore my heart fails me.

Be pleased, O Lord, to deliver me;
O Lord, make hast to help me!
Let them be ashamed and brought to mutual confusion
Who seek to destroy my life;
Let them be driven backward and brought to dishonour
Who wish me evil.
Let them be confounded because of their shame,
Who say to me, "Aha,aha!"

Let all those who seek You rejoice and be glad in You;
Let such as love Your salvation say continually,
"The Lord be magnified!"
But I am poor and needy;
Yet the Lord thinks upon me.
You are my help and my deliverer;
Do not delay, O my God. Amen. Bless His Holy Name.
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