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Old 12-11-2008, 12:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Absolutely. Jealousy is a human psychological weakness responsible for the erroneous interpretations of God's motives by the primitives. WE know far too much about human psychology to accept such nonsense about our God. That was the Jewish God . . . not Jesus. Don't misstate me . . all negative emotions in humans are the result of psychological weakness from the interaction of our soul and our animal natures, period. Love, compassion, kindness, mercy, etc. are God's pure emotions without the negative influence of our carnal nature.

We must interpret scripture from our advanced knowledge............
Again no scripture to back up your claim. Mystic you can't be validated without God's word and before you talk about the Holy Spirit, "one with the conscience thing" giving you the truth through experience, explain this.

Texas man says God told him to ram other driver at 100 mph


"Though Schwab told deputies "God said she wasn't driving right" and "it was Jesus' will for him to punish the car,” he did not describe the other driver's alleged transgressions of the holy rules of the road. Deputies determined the unidentified 35-year-old woman “had done nothing wrong,” according to a news release." This person definitely had an experience too. Does God contradict Himself in his message to people or are you gonna run into someone at 100 mph too or equivalent to that?

Texas man says God told him to ram other driver at 100 mph - On Deadline - USATODAY.com

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 12-11-2008 at 01:40 PM..
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Old 12-11-2008, 01:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Again no scripture to back up your claim. Mystic you can't be validated without God's word and before you talk about the Holy Spirit, "one with the conscience thing" giving you the truth through experience, explain this.

Texas man says God told him to ram other driver at 100 mph
Straw man,Fundy . . . don't be silly. Either you believe we have access to Jesus and the holy spirit or you don't. Just because I allow my education to inform my interpretation of what I experience as God's love and acceptance . . .doesn't mean I have a mental illness like that man in Texas. He represents an example of how the spiritual misguidance and reliance on magical, supernatural belief systems can lead to truly abominable everyday beliefs and practices. Those who rely solely on the word and not the urgings of the holy spirit within us should not minimize the significance of the passage quoted from Jeremias 8:8

. . . How do you say: We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Indeed the lying pen of the Scribes hath wrought falsehood. The wise men are confounded, they are dismayed and taken . . . and there is no wisdom in them. They are confounded because they have committed abomination: yea rather they are not confounded with confusion.

especially the last sentence describing those who interpret and administer "laws:" "They are confounded because they have committed abomination: . . ."

Christ refers us to the prophesy of Daniel to understand this abomination (so spiritually we should focus only on the spiritual symbolism of abomination and not the historical) in the passage of prophesy concerning the end of the world found in Matthew 24:14.

. . . And the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world, for a witness to all nations; and then will come the end. Therefore, when you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place - let him who reads understand

Biblical scholars interpreting things SECULARLY (instead of SPIRITUALLY) typically construe the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel as the idol of Jupiter Olympius, which was placed in the sanctuary of the Temple by Antiochus. Obviously to apply the prophesy of Daniel spiritually to the end of the world it must NOT be interpreted as events of Daniel's time, but as a prediction of a time yet to be in our future, or so it seems to me. This is borne out by the fact that the world has not yet ended! The world should long ago have perished if the secular and historical interpretation was correct. The excerpt from Daniel 9:27, follows,

. . . and there shall be in the Temple the abomination of desolation: and desolation shall continue even to the consummation and to the end.


Desolation means isolation. Abomination means loathsome. That which is loathsome of isolation is the ignorance it produces. Our individual souls because of their isolation in our human bodies, separated from God, flounder in ignorance. That is the abomination of isolation - ignorance. Spiritually the temple refers to our body which is the temple of our soul. There is ignorance in us as the result of our soul's isolation and the isolation will continue to the consummation of the world.

But, there is hope that spiritual ignorance can be defeated. From Daniel 11:31,

. . . and they shall defile the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the continual sacrifice, and they shall place there the abomination unto desolation. And such as deal wickedly against the covenant shall deceitfully dissemble: But the people that know their God shall prevail and succeed. And they that are learned among the people shall teach many.

The sanctuary of strength is a symbolic reference to Christ and the church that would follow him. The continual sacrifice, then, would symbolically be the concept of continual self-control that has been taken away from Christ's church. It has been replaced by concepts of salvation (magically) through merely "believing" in Christ, or performing various rituals or "sacraments," or following some archaic set of rules without thought, or following some charismatic leader's pronouncements (which almost always involve a request for money.)

THAT is the abomination (or ignorance) that has been placed in the sanctuary (Christ's church). However, the sincere believers in God apparently shall prevail and succeed anyway. The phrase, "they that are learned among the people shall teach many," seems a hollow comfort in this day and age when we see so many "learned" floundering in their own confusion and spiritual barrenness. The majority of those who become "learned" seem to lose their spiritual way in the process. It is easy to do as the firmly held truths and teachings from one's childhood are shown to be foolishness, or primitive fantasy unsupported by logic or reason.

For these "learned" victims of religious faith anything connected with God or religion can readily become distasteful as cynicism sets in. Consequently, the "learned" tend to generate a lot of criticism toward the many unscrupulous, pompous, or merely misguided religious leaders and institutions, but very little real spiritual guidance from the "learned" ever seems to reach the "many."

Despite their protestations that "it is up to each individual to resolve spiritual issues because science can have no role," scientists have not remained neutral. But, there is still hope. Apparently, the spiritual barrenness among the "learned" will not continue indefinitely. The "learned," sooner or later, will discard their cynicism and begin to approach the purpose of our existence with a positive attitude.
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Old 12-11-2008, 01:51 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,449,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Straw man,Fundy . . . don't be silly. Either you believe we have access to Jesus and the holy spirit or you don't. Just because I allow my education to inform my interpretation of what I experience as God's love and acceptance . . .doesn't mean I have a mental illness like that man in Texas. He represents an example of how the spiritual misguidance and reliance on magical, supernatural belief systems can lead to truly abominable everyday beliefs and practices. Those who rely solely on the word and not the urgings of the holy spirit within us should not minimize the significance of the passage quoted from Jeremias 8:8
and we can take your word.

I knew exactly what your answer was going to be because I backed you into a corner and you claim "mental illness". How do you know? Why can I not say the same about you?

Wow, I see you actually do use some scripture, so you pick and choose scripture I see, use the ones you agree with and discard the ones you don't agree with.
Either you use all of scripture or you use none. Your theology is shifty and how can anyone debate you when your defense are on tectonic plates.

Using humanistic/ finite knowledge to explain an infinite, eternal God is theologically illogical not to mention impossible. The only thing that can explain God Himself is His own words revealing who He is.
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Old 12-11-2008, 02:11 PM
 
37,496 posts, read 25,232,088 times
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
and we can take your word.

I knew exactly what your answer was going to be because I backed you into a corner and you claim "mental illness". How do you know? Why can I not say the same about you?
Because I know a great deal about mental illness, Fundy. I am an educated psychologist. You only need to search inside for the holy spirit that is within to evaluate my claims . . . no need to take my word for it.
Quote:
Wow, I see you actually do use some scripture, so you pick and choose scripture I see, use the ones you agree with and discard the ones you don't agree with.
Either you use all of scripture or you use none. Your theology is shifty and how can anyone debate you when your defense are on tectonic plates.
I do indeed know my scriptures, Fundy. Sorry . . . I do not believe my God would give me the capability for reason and ask me to abandon it to blindly follow the written words of primitive minds as if they were infallible by way of magic . . . I know too much about human minds. I use my intelligence to discern what is probably of human origin and what is of Godly inspiration. It isn't hard . . . if it is a negative human response . . . it is not of God. At least I don't write off as nonsense the inspiration aspect as so many highly educated do.
Quote:
Using humanistic/ finite knowledge to explain an infinite, eternal God is theologically illogical not to mention impossible. The only thing that can explain God Himself is His own words.
You will never convince me that I must embrace ignorance to love and understand God. I completely understand Jesus and I try to emulate him. That wrathful, vengeful creation of primitives is unacceptable to me.
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Old 12-11-2008, 02:45 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,449,783 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Because I know a great deal about mental illness, Fundy. I am an educated psychologist. You only need to search inside for the holy spirit that is within to evaluate my claims . . . no need to take my word for it.
Using psychology to explain the bible? That does not work. You still have not explained why I can't say the same about you because to be honest I believe your theology to be bordering on kooky. That is what the Holy Spirit is telling me, again the Holy Spirit is contracting Himself or will you show the audacity of telling me I am crazy or I am wrong?
Quote:
I do indeed know my scriptures, Fundy. Sorry . . . I do not believe my God would give me the capability for reason and ask me to abandon it to blindly follow the written words of primitive minds as if they were infallible by way of magic . . . I know too much about human minds. I use my intelligence to discern what is probably of human origin and what is of Godly inspiration.
Well hate to tell ya' but the bible tells us to and that it is His word. What you see as magic is His will. We call magic what we can't explain, there might be a perfectly good scientific reason for God's "magic", it just might be a technology or physics we can't understand but to call it magic is premature not to mention unfair. God said, that he uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.

Quote:
It isn't hard . . . if it is a negative human response . . . it is not of God. At least I don't write off as nonsense the inspiration aspect as so many highly educated do. You will never convince me that I must embrace ignorance to love and understand God. I completely understand Jesus and I try to emulate him. That wrathful, vengeful creation of primitives is unacceptable to me.
What is a negative human response? The Egyptians who were drowned had a negative human response but it was of God. God uses the good and bad to His ultimate goodness, He uses it to show His glory. If God is in control, omnipotent, omniscient yet He allows little girls to be raped, tornadoes to rip open a church with children in it, are these not negative human responses? so where is your God during this? Why would a good and loving God allow these horrible things to take place?
I am not asking you to embrace ignorance but if you don't understand the Father then you don't understand the Son either. I pray you get right with the Lord. God is love, He has wrath but He is love too, He shares the same characteristics of Jesus. Maybe you should read up on the Jesus who is going to return, He is not the loving, humble servant that came the first time.

You want to be like Jesus, please explain the Jesus who showed His anger and ripped apart the market in the temple?

(Matthew 10:34-36)
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“ ‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members


(Revelations 19:11)
11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war....

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 12-11-2008 at 03:02 PM..
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Old 12-11-2008, 04:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You will never convince me that I must embrace ignorance to love and understand God. I completely understand Jesus and I try to emulate him. That wrathful, vengeful creation of primitives is unacceptable to me.
Marcion, the originator of Marcionism, had views almost identical to yours. His theology was made heretical by the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.
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Old 12-11-2008, 05:12 PM
 
37,496 posts, read 25,232,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Using psychology to explain the bible? That does not work. You still have not explained why I can't say the same about you because to be honest I believe your theology to be bordering on kooky. That is what the Holy Spirit is telling me, again the Holy Spirit is contracting Himself or will you show the audacity of telling me I am crazy or I am wrong?
No Fundy . . . I am using psychology to understand what is probably of human origin and what is inspired by God in the scriptures. You can accept the benefit of my knowledge or reject it. I am reading the same scriptures you are and I embrace the same holy spirit you do and it tells me NOT to trust the earlier primitive interpretations that dealt with material and secular things. It tells me the scriptures are for spiritual understanding and not knowledge of history or the material world. I do believe you are wrong . . . so we will just have to agree to disagree . . . but I would never consider you crazy. We are following Christ as best we can using pure hearts. I believe we will both be just fine spiritually.
Quote:
Well hate to tell ya' but the bible tells us to and that it is His word. What you see as magic is His will. We call magic what we can't explain, there might be a perfectly good scientific reason for God's "magic", it just might be a technology or physics we can't understand but to call it magic is premature not to mention unfair. God said, that he uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.
I believe the bible tells us many things to help us spiritually understand God's purpose for us. We just disagree about which parts of the bible are of God and which are of man.
Quote:
What is a negative human response? The Egyptians who were drowned had a negative human response but it was of God. God uses the good and bad to His ultimate goodness, He uses it to show His glory. If God is in control, omnipotent, omniscient yet He allows little girls to be raped, tornadoes to rip open a church with children in it, are these not negative human responses? so where is your God during this? Why would a good and loving God allow these horrible things to take place.
I see that you are confusing worldly events with human spiritual motivations. Human responses are the actions of humans that are driven by human motivations . . . not natural phenomena. God causes nothing to happen in our physical world, good or bad. God's "kingdom" is a spiritual one and God's concerns for us are about "our spiritual well-being." We are responsible for our physical well-being.
Quote:
I am not asking you to embrace ignorance but if you don't understand the Father then you don't understand the Son either. I pray you get right with the Lord. God is love, He has wrath but He is love too, He shares the same characteristics of Jesus. Maybe you should read up on the Jesus whi is going to return, He is not the loving, humble servant that came the first time.

You want to be like Jesus, please explain the Jesus who showed His anger and ripped apart the market in the temple?
Jesus displayed the true pacifism we are to embrace . . . not the "do nothing" kind of pacifism that enables evil to triumph. He did no violence to any human . . . but he disrupted their evil enterprises. It was done in love . . . not anger.
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Old 12-11-2008, 05:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Churchyard View Post
Marcion, the originator of Marcionism, had views almost identical to yours. His theology was made heretical by the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.
I am familiar with the heretic Marcion . . . and I see very little similarity in our views. I don't reject books of the bible . . . I interpret them spiritually and symbolically . . . not literally and not as if they were inerrant . . . very fallible, ignorant and primitive men wrote them down.
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I am familiar with the heretic Marcion . . . and I see very little similarity in our views. I don't reject books of the bible . . . I interpret them spiritually and symbolically . . . not literally and not as if they were inerrant . . . very fallible, ignorant and primitive men wrote them down.
But you still indicate a need to differentiate between the God of the OT and that of Jesus in the NT. Marcion's thinking was based on a similar sense of incompatibility between the two versions of Divinity.
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:35 AM
 
1,932 posts, read 4,257,131 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Because I know a great deal about mental illness, Fundy. I am an educated psychologist. You only need to search inside for the holy spirit that is within to evaluate my claims . . . no need to take my word for it. I do indeed know my scriptures, Fundy. Sorry . . . I do not believe my God would give me the capability for reason and ask me to abandon it to blindly follow the written words of primitive minds as if they were infallible by way of magic . . . I know too much about human minds. I use my intelligence to discern what is probably of human origin and what is of Godly inspiration. It isn't hard . . . if it is a negative human response . . . it is not of God. At least I don't write off as nonsense the inspiration aspect as so many highly educated do. You will never convince me that I must embrace ignorance to love and understand God. I completely understand Jesus and I try to emulate him. That wrathful, vengeful creation of primitives is unacceptable to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
No Fundy . . . I am using psychology to understand what is probably of human origin and what is inspired by God in the scriptures. You can accept the benefit of my knowledge or reject it. I am reading the same scriptures you are and I embrace the same holy spirit you do and it tells me NOT to trust the earlier primitive interpretations that dealt with material and secular things. It tells me the scriptures are for spiritual understanding and not knowledge of history or the material world. I do believe you are wrong . . . so we will just have to agree to disagree . . . but I would never consider you crazy. We are following Christ as best we can using pure hearts. I believe we will both be just fine spiritually. I believe the bible tells us many things to help us spiritually understand God's purpose for us. We just disagree about which parts of the bible are of God and which are of man. I see that you are confusing worldly events with human spiritual motivations. Human responses are the actions of humans that are driven by human motivations . . . not natural phenomena. God causes nothing to happen in our physical world, good or bad. God's "kingdom" is a spiritual one and God's concerns for us are about "our spiritual well-being." We are responsible for our physical well-being. Jesus displayed the true pacifism we are to embrace . . . not the "do nothing" kind of pacifism that enables evil to triumph. He did no violence to any human . . . but he disrupted their evil enterprises. It was done in love . . . not anger.
MysticPhD, having read your above posts (and the others) in this thread, I now understand where you're coming from. While I disagree with your assertions, just like you disagree with me, it's your choice what to believe and why you believe it, the same as for me.

I do find it disheartening that you don't fully trust the complete counsel of God's word, but again, that's a choice that has to be made.
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