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Old 10-30-2008, 12:46 PM
 
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Why do mideastern men of 2000 yrs ago have European names?

Peter, Paul, Matthew, etc. Why not Ahmed, Ibin, etc? Names of the area they lived in.

And why are they always depicted as Caucasians?
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
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Those English names is part of the translation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackyfrost01 View Post
Why do mideastern men of 2000 yrs ago have European names?

Peter, Paul, Matthew, etc. Why not Ahmed, Ibin, etc? Names of the area they lived in.

And why are they always depicted as Caucasians?
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Old 10-30-2008, 01:29 PM
 
1,577 posts, read 3,267,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
Those English names is part of the translation
Ancient Hebrew people named their kids European names??

So when did they start using Arabic names?

Didn't Islam start in the same area of the world around the same timeframe? Mohammed was a name used back then and today. Islamic history seems to have alot of Persian and Arabic style names. And they were in direct conflict with Christians who were in the same area. Odd.

Still dunno why they are always depicted as White people tho. Is that in the translation too?
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Old 10-30-2008, 01:39 PM
 
2,255 posts, read 4,797,170 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackyfrost01 View Post
Why do mideastern men of 2000 yrs ago have European names?

Peter, Paul, Matthew, etc. Why not Ahmed, Ibin, etc? Names of the area they lived in.

And why are they always depicted as Caucasians?
Actually you will find most names to be Anglicized for the purpose of the English reader. It is also the same in other languages when it comes to translation. I understand what you are saying but the actual spelling and pronunciation of any and every Biblical name (person, place or thing) is entirely different from the original. To be honest, I don't think anyone could accurately pronounce any name exactly as they did back then.

Here's an interesting excercise. This website has many translations. Numerous translations are in other languages listed here also. Try comparing the scripture in Luke 6:14 and take note first of the Anglicized names of Peter , Andrew , James , Philip, and Bartholomew. Then click from the translation "Menu Bar"on other language translations that use the Roman lettered alphabet and notice the changes.

BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: Luke 6:14;

Anyway it's not a problem for me. It could equally be said by someone in Germany, "Why are Johannes , Yakobus, Andreas, etc used and not some Middle Eastern names?"

You should also note that any name could be argued as middle eastern, as many empires, cultures, races and languages have come and gone and changed their real estate on and off for centures. So not everything should be Arabic, especially since most of that was'nt around then

Even in the Bible itself there are changes to the same spelling and pronunciation of the same individual. An example is that of a man name Achan who stole some valuables from the city of Jericho which were to be devoted to destruction. Here is his name mentioned at Joshua 7:1 , then some centuries latter the spelling Achar was used at 1 Chronicles 2:7. Apparently the name changed pronunciation and spelling and that was the way the Jewish priest Ezra then wrote it down according to the custom of the time. To sum it up, "It happens"
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Old 10-30-2008, 01:45 PM
 
1,577 posts, read 3,267,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific View Post
Actually you will find most names to be Anglicized for the purpose of the English reader. It is also the same in other languages when it comes to translation. I understand what you are saying but the actual spelling and pronunciation of any and every Biblical name (person, place or thing) is entirely different from the original. To be honest, I don't think anyone could accurately pronounce any name exactly as they did back then.

Here's an interesting excercise. This website has many translations. Numerous translations are in other languages listed here also. Try comparing the scripture in Luke 6:14 and take note first of the Anglicized names of Peter , Andrew , James , Philip, and Bartholomew. Then click from the translation "Menu Bar"on other language translations that use the Roman lettered alphabet and notice the changes.

BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: Luke 6:14;

Anyway it's not a problem for me. It could equally be said by someone in Germany, "Why are Johannes , Yakobus, Andreas, etc used and not some Middle Eastern names?"

You should also note that any name could be argued as middle eastern, as many empires, cultures, races and languages have come and gone and changed their real estate on and off for centures. So not everything should be Arabic, especially since most of that was'nt around then

Even in the Bible itself there are changes to the same spelling and pronunciation of the same individual. An example is that of a man name Achan who stole some valuables from the city of Jericho which were to be devoted to destruction. Here is his name mentioned at Joshua 7:1 , then some centuries latter the spelling Achar was used at 1 Chronicles 2:7. Apparently the name changed pronunciation and spelling and that was the way the Jewish priest Ezra then wrote it down according to the custom of the time. To sum it up, "It happens"

Why not just use the people's real names and give them the appearances they most likely looked like?

Or would depicting dark skinned people having odd names (ie Bin Laden, or whatever) would likely have turned the European masses away from the idea of Christianity?

If thats the case, sorta sounds like they lied to people a bit to get them to listen to them.
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Old 10-30-2008, 01:59 PM
 
2,255 posts, read 4,797,170 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackyfrost01 View Post
Why not just use the people's real names and give them the appearances they most likely looked like?

Or would depicting dark skinned people having odd names (ie Bin Laden, or whatever) would likely have turned the European masses away from the idea of Christianity?

If thats the case, sorta sounds like they lied to people a bit to get them to listen to them.
If you look at my post in the "Pagan Influence on Christianity" thread, I did criticize the way Artists depict Jesus. He's always very white and sickly looking skeleton of a wimp on a cross. Hardly the mighty King he is depicted in Revelation. Definitely a European look, but that was the artistry of the time period in middle ages Europe. Definitely Jesus would have had a more mediterranean olive complexion as we see today in areas of more sunshine. Arabs for the most part had'nt really taken over till the Islamic movement much later. Who can say for certainty how each area changed, but as you say, most of the art work is based after a European flavour. Considering the history of how European "Christian Nations" exploited the rest of the planet centuries later, it's not that hard to understand how certain things turned out the way they have.

Make your own conclusions.
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Old 10-30-2008, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 15,098,996 times
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I'm guessing you didnt read what I wrote.

If the original language was Spanish then you would have Juan.
Since it will be translated to English since we read English...it would be translated to John



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackyfrost01 View Post
Ancient Hebrew people named their kids European names??

So when did they start using Arabic names?

Didn't Islam start in the same area of the world around the same timeframe? Mohammed was a name used back then and today. Islamic history seems to have alot of Persian and Arabic style names. And they were in direct conflict with Christians who were in the same area. Odd.

Still dunno why they are always depicted as White people tho. Is that in the translation too?
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Old 10-30-2008, 02:09 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,555,893 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific View Post
If you look at my post in the "Pagan Influence on Christianity" thread, I did criticize the way Artists depict Jesus. He's always very white and sickly looking skeleton of a wimp on a cross. Hardly the mighty King he is depicted in Revelation. Definitely a European look, but that was the artistry of the time period in middle ages Europe.
He wasn't much to look at.

For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. (Isa 53:2)

Isaiah is of course prophesying about the One to come a few hundred years after him, and not the triumphant King of John's revelation - though they are One and the same.
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Old 10-30-2008, 02:20 PM
 
17,749 posts, read 15,034,268 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackyfrost01 View Post
Why do mideastern men of 2000 yrs ago have European names?

Peter, Paul, Matthew, etc. Why not Ahmed, Ibin, etc? Names of the area they lived in.

And why are they always depicted as Caucasians?
Hi Jackyfrost01,

You have it backwards. Europeans took on those names after being converted to Christianity . That is why a first name is often called a Christian name. They are certainly anglicized.
As far as depictions, how often do you suppose a German ran into someone from Syria a 1000 years ago?
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Old 10-30-2008, 02:23 PM
 
1,016 posts, read 2,703,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackyfrost01 View Post
Why do mideastern men of 2000 yrs ago have European names?

Peter, Paul, Matthew, etc. Why not Ahmed, Ibin, etc? Names of the area they lived in.

And why are they always depicted as Caucasians?

Peter, Paul, Matthew are English renderings of the Hebrew names (or, in some cases, English renderings of the Greek renderings of Hebrew names). Prior to the Christianization of any given European country, the prevalence of any "Christian" name was virtually non-existent. So, Englishmen named "Matthew", Swedes named "Johan", Germans named "Hannah", and Frenchmen named "Pierre" all have names that come from a Hebrew background.

The prevalence of what we consider to be "middle-eastern" names in the Ancient Middle East was likewise much smaller. Anything from the Bible was written at least 600 years before the Quran. It wasn't until the Golden Age of Islam (8th to 13th centuries) that names with a strong Arabian origin became extremely commonplace throughout the Middle East. Due to the common Semitic language origin, there are some common threads. For example, "Bin Laden" means "Son of Laden". Compare this to the Hebrew "Ben Gurien" (Son of Gurien).

As to why all depictions of the prophets, etc...are "all white"---they aren't. That tends to happen within certain locales, particularly in places where the predominant population is white (especially in times past when there were particularly few Middle Eastern people in Europe). Also, consider the political aspects of art older than the 20th century. When the Ottoman Empire is knocking at the back door of Europe, you aren't likely to make your Biblical heroes look like your political enemy.
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