U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 12-20-2008, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Northern Va. from N.J.
4,368 posts, read 4,093,265 times
Reputation: 2652

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
I do see your point.

No doubt as one travels the world, there are many inconsistencies in interpretation of dogma.


And any honest Catholic will admit, we are imperfect...

( but still working on it )
I think there are some Catholics that are not being quite honest. Sure they will admit to a minor flaw or even to a not so minor of a flaw as long as it happened many centuries ago and they feel safely insulated from it by time. Even then they still try to transfer blame.
These Catholics seem to have their faith in this neatly gift wrapped box.

The closed mind is, by definition, unable to see truth he or she does not want to see, especially if that truth is presented by someone whose ideas offend his or her personal ideological structure

Last edited by ted08721; 12-20-2008 at 12:51 PM..

 
Old 12-20-2008, 12:45 PM
 
28 posts, read 34,556 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by ted08721 View Post
"I merely said/implied that dissenters hate the church and what it stands for. Nothing wrong or untrue with that statement."

Your claim that "dissenters hate the Church and what it stands for" as a true fact is simply amazing.
True perhaps in your mind only.

."We are supposed to be obedient"

Most do not believe in BLIND obedience.
Faith should be intelligent and justifiable.
Good Morning,

It is possilbe that if Newman was still dissentling after ordination, his conversion was not complete. I think we are all in constant conversion. In a council setting, he would be free to offer opinions since doctrine was not finalized. Papal infallibility is misunderstood because it has nothing to do with a persons perfection. It is simply the belief that the holy spirit would guide the Pope in matters of doctrinal interpretation and acceptance of new doctrine.
In regard to the statements about dissenters, I anwered them already. I used the math student analogy in an earlier post that explained my position very clearly. It is obvious that dissenters do not like the church as it is. They think it should be changed to fit their thinking. This has happened throughout history and defined as heresies. The leadership disagrees with the modern dissenters. I disagree as well. You implied that I am all alone in my little mind. Ok. If that is the way it is, I am perfectly fine with it. One person agreeing with the traditional teachings of the church...great! However, that is certainly not the case. According to the Lincoln Diocese, thousands of calls and letters have come in since the Bishops announcement about groups such as 'Call to Action' and 'Catholics for Free Choice'. The diocese says 85-90% is positive toward the Bishop! So, I guess I am not not alone in my mind.
I think we should be obedient. Why do dissenters think they possess more wisdom than the church and its long history. Blind obedience is accepting something without intelligence and justification. That is certainly not the case with the church. I trust the church fathers with what is best for me because of its wisdom and I am puzzled why someone would put more trust in leaders of organizations that want to undermine the Church's teachings.
I think the US Bishops have been backed into a corner with their restraint. They have had enough. They are fighting the "culture of death" in America. Thank God for them. To me, they have not done enough. In reality, excommunication is a step by step procedure and is a result of personal choice for a member. They are asked to see their error and reconcile with the church and its teachings. If they do not change the behavior, the church goes further and asks them to abstain from communion. If they violate this, stronger measures are taken until excommunication is the only option. So, you are incorrect that the church is running around with a bat waiting to whack the next dissenter. The truth is the dissenter disobediently whacks himself through an entire process.
I can't help but see how far some have moved away when I look at this weekends gospel. "I am the handmaiden of the Lord, let it be done to me as you say". What total selflessness our Mother showed to the Angel Gabriel. What blind obedience. What an example to us is our Mother. Living in a time in which she could be stoned to death for being pregnant out of wedlock....she said yes. She was obedient.
 
Old 12-20-2008, 12:48 PM
 
28 posts, read 34,556 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by ted08721 View Post
I think there are some Catholics that are not being quite honest. Sure they will admit to a minor flaw or even a big flaw as long as it happened many centuries ago and they feel safely insulated from it by time. Even then they still try to transfer blame.
These Catholics seem to have their faith in this neatly gift wrapped box.

The closed mind is, by definition, unable to see truth he or she does not want to see, especially if that truth is presented by someone whose ideas offend his or her personal ideological structure
Great point! Makes me wonder how "Call to Action" and "Catholics for Free Choice" exists at all! The TRUTH is taught by the AUTHORIY of the church, not the leadership of these two groups.
 
Old 12-20-2008, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Northern Va. from N.J.
4,368 posts, read 4,093,265 times
Reputation: 2652
For those that are not familar Bishop Bruskewitz of the diocese of Lincoln Nebraska he excommunicated members of CTA (Call to Action) for the unforgivable and horrible crime of supporting women's ordination.

While at the same time refusing to be in compliance with the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops program for the protection of children from sexual abuse.

Lincoln Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz is getting a lot of national attention again because his is the only Roman Catholic diocese in the country that declined to participate in last year’s audit of compliance with the Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People.

The 2007 audit of diocesan child protection programs will again be relatively comprehensive, with teams of reviewers visiting each and every diocese that will let them in the door. (There are still some notable holdouts to the whole process, most notably the Lincoln, Neb., diocese, the bishop of which, Fabian Bruskewitz, is accountable to no one.) And these reviews, for the first time, will include an evaluation of the quality of those programs, and not just a check-the-box acknowledgment that they exist.
Bishop Bruskewitz is a member of the USCCB, which created the National Review Board. Dr. Ewers is its current chair. The Lincoln, Nebraska diocese failed in the USCCB-mandate that calls for audits on every US diocese for their compliance with the USCCB Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People. The reason for the failure is that the Lincoln, Nebraska diocese refused to participate and simply does not recognize the NRB. So who is protecting children in the Catholic schools, churches and rectories of Lincoln?

In this regard, the Board notes that although the bishops in general demon¬strated support for the work of the Board and the John Jay College survey, the vicar general for the Diocese of Lincoln (Nebraska) wrote a letter indicating that the Most Reverend Fabian Bruskewitz, Bishop of Lincoln, would not cooperate with the efforts of either the Board or John Jay College. Specifically, the letter stated that Bishop Bruskewitz "does not recognize any jurisdiction claimed over him or his pastoral activity by the 'National Review Board'" and that he "is prepared to take any appropriate and suitable measures necessary, including legal action, were that Board, your institution, or the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops to attempt to coerce him by adverse publicity, the threat of such, or other similar actions."

BTW the CTA group had led the protest against the bishop for refusing to take part in the program to protect the children.

Last edited by ted08721; 12-20-2008 at 04:14 PM..
 
Old 12-20-2008, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Northern Va. from N.J.
4,368 posts, read 4,093,265 times
Reputation: 2652
"is prepared to take any appropriate and suitable measures necessary, including legal action, were that Board, your institution, or the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops to attempt to coerce him by adverse publicity, the threat of such, or other similar actions."

Maybe he will also excommunicate them , you think?
 
Old 12-20-2008, 05:53 PM
 
28 posts, read 34,556 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by ted08721 View Post
"is prepared to take any appropriate and suitable measures necessary, including legal action, were that Board, your institution, or the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops to attempt to coerce him by adverse publicity, the threat of such, or other similar actions."

Maybe he will also excommunicate them , you think?
One more time: Individuals excommunicate themselves by ignoring the step by step processes of the church, The Church has this process in order to allow those in error to change their actions and come back into communion with the Church. Individuals have plenty of opportunity to correct their error. So, you know how the saying goes. Three strikes your out or in this case, several times of hitting yourself in the head with the bat and you are out. No one was swooped down on without any prior knowledge. Even a kid going swimming knows he is going to get kicked out of the pool if he keeps breaking the rules and talking back to the life guard! Beats me why some of these who claim to love the church so much struggle to figure it out.
Womens ordination is a closed matter. Pope John Paul ll said he didn't even have the authority to change the directive that came from Christ and through his Apostles. Mute, done deal. It is the way it is. Final. No sense in going there. Get over it.
About the National Review Board....yeh, they work for the US conference of Bishops but they do not have any authority over a diocese. It should be pointed out that Bishop Bruskewitz said that some of the board members are ardent advocates for abortion and even partial birth abortion. Human cloning too. Knowing this and stating that his diocese has not done anything wrong and is 100% compliant with church law and civil law makes it unnecessary for a review by such a biased group. To me, it makes it laughable that such an organization exists to protect children! Kind of like the National Educational Association continuously endorsing candidates who are keeping abortion going in America. Last I understood in my "little brain" was teachers need kids to have jobs. How much sense does that make? I guess the Bishop feels the same way about this board. I know this....what you write about took place in 2006. Nothing happened. Bishop Bruskewitz runs a clean ship. He knows laws are on the books to watch over children.
I am not the only one who thinks he is a great leader. Hopefully a future Cardinal. Go to this site anyone who would like to read a perspective from a real non-dissenting Catholic activist. Charles M Wilson (EWTN) wrote a great piece that nails things down. Huge numbers of Catholics feel as Mr. Wilson. The site is www.EWTN.com/library/CanonLaw/Finally.htm and I highly recommend it.
 
Old 12-20-2008, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Northern Va. from N.J.
4,368 posts, read 4,093,265 times
Reputation: 2652
"Knowing this and stating that his diocese has not done anything wrong and is 100% compliant with church law and civil law makes it unnecessary for a review by such a biased group."

That's the kind of thinking that got the Church in trouble in the first place.
Cardinal Law said the same thing in Boston, then scandal spread throughout the whole country.
Rome said it was a problem of the American Church, then it spread to every continent.

As long as there are bishops that think like Bruskewitz and people put them and priest on pedestals the problems that plague the Church such as the sex abuse scandal will never go away.
 
Old 12-20-2008, 07:42 PM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,284,791 times
Reputation: 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by ted08721 View Post
I think there are some Catholics that are not being quite honest. Sure they will admit to a minor flaw or even to a not so minor of a flaw as long as it happened many centuries ago and they feel safely insulated from it by time. Even then they still try to transfer blame.
These Catholics seem to have their faith in this neatly gift wrapped box.

The closed mind is, by definition, unable to see truth he or she does not want to see, especially if that truth is presented by someone whose ideas offend his or her personal ideological structure
Okay, all you Catholics out there. We are nearsighted morons and unable to come to grips with the truth. Ted has spoken. I officially excommunicate myself and all you good folks from the Catholic Church because this highly intelligent human has spoken his opinion and because I witnessed the truth seeping and oozing from his pores, I am becoming a Druid. Long live the Druids. Anyone joining me?
 
Old 12-20-2008, 09:19 PM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 5,961,793 times
Reputation: 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
Okay, all you Catholics out there. We are nearsighted morons and unable to come to grips with the truth. Ted has spoken. I officially excommunicate myself and all you good folks from the Catholic Church because this highly intelligent human has spoken his opinion and because I witnessed the truth seeping and oozing from his pores, I am becoming a Druid. Long live the Druids. Anyone joining me?
will it mean I get to have one of those cool helmets and a shiney sword?

 
Old 12-20-2008, 09:25 PM
 
Location: among the chaos
2,136 posts, read 4,305,066 times
Reputation: 980
Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
Ted has spoken.
I stopped reading Ted along time ago.

Peace be with Ted...

<><
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top