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I agree completely. I've always voted for the Republicans because they were the "pro-life" party, but lately I've had to ask myself...if God is displeased by my voting for a pro-choice candidate...isn't he also displeased by voting for corrupt, warmongering candidates too? Won't I have to answer for both votes? No christian has been able to give me a good answer, except the old mantra that voting for a Democrat means you're not a good christian--or maybe not a christian at all (let's face it, most christians think this)--solely because of abortion. That's legalism pure and simple, and adds to the cross IMO.
So I've concluded that most Christians simply don't think that caring for the poor, or starting wars, or other issues matter very much--at least when it comes to politics. To me, that's wrong. All of these matter equally to me, the bible addresses them heavily. Now, I can't vote for the Democrats because I'm pro-life, but I can't vote for the GOP either...for the exact same reason. They are corrupt, immoral, and I will not vote for them again--as a christian, I will not have my witness compromised by voting for a bunch of hypocrites who claim to support "moral values" when they're just pandering for our votes, by sowing division among our people, and playing on our fears. I will not answer to God for a third vote for a party that has led us into an unnecessary war. I already have to answer for two.
Remember, the lesser of two evils is still evil, and we will answer for God for both.
If this is the case, then it would be best for the Christian to stay out of politics completely, but if that was to happen, it could have dire consequences for Christianity in America. Its why we must vote, even if we don't agree with everything our candidate stands for.
Originally posted by Bchris02
If this is the case, then it would be best for the Christian to stay out of politics completely, but if that was to happen, it could have dire consequences for Christianity in America. Its why we must vote, even if we don't agree with everything our candidate stands for.
Hi Bchris,
Personally, I'm voting third party or write in. I have no problem with voting, but I do think it's overrated. But it seems that being so heavily involved in politics hasn't helped christianity in America at all. For thirty years evangelicals have been active. And where are we? Abortion is still legal, but we're stuck with a Republican party that's in no real hurry to get rid of it. (probably so we'll keep voting for them) Also, our society is no better than it was back in the 70s, morally speaking. I think part of that is because many of us have come to believe that morality comes from the top down, instead from the heart outward. We won't say it, but we act like it, without realizing it. We'll sign a petition to get the ten commandments on display at the local courthouse, but won't invite a neighbor over for dinner to show Jesus to him. Politics have also divided the church. Christian Democrats are considered an oxymoron, and if anyone considers voting for a Democrat, immediately the sincerity of their faith in christ is questioned. I have witnessed this firsthand. It is tragic that in many circles the quality of someone's faith is measured in who they vote for.
Jesus didn't tell the disciples "Take this list of moral issues to the governor and get him to enact it". He also didn't say "We need to get a few of you in there (the govt.)and get our agenda through" He said "Go and make disciples of all nations" Christianity is always at its best when it isn't part of the establishment, when it operated separately from the world. It had more integrity and transparency. It was more attractive. But when we align ourselves with parties and politicians to enact the kingdom of God on earth, through worldly means, it has disasterous consequences for the church. Our witness is compromised, and we're taken advantage of by self serving, powerful people, and the church is always wounded as a result.
To clarify: By all means christians should stand up for their right to expression and worship. Abortion is important, just like ending the slave trade was. But at the end of the day, I'd rather spend my energy winning souls into the kingdom than knocking on doors for a politician.
I could go on with my rant, there's so much more I could say, but it's late, and I have to teach sunday school tomorrow. Good night, and have a great time at church in the morning, all of you
Personally, I'm voting third party or write in. I have no problem with voting, but I do think it's overrated. But it seems that being so heavily involved in politics hasn't helped christianity in America at all. For thirty years evangelicals have been active. And where are we? Abortion is still legal, but we're stuck with a Republican party that's in no real hurry to get rid of it. (probably so we'll keep voting for them) Also, our society is no better than it was back in the 70s, morally speaking. I think part of that is because many of us have come to believe that morality comes from the top down, instead from the heart outward. We won't say it, but we act like it, without realizing it. We'll sign a petition to get the ten commandments on display at the local courthouse, but won't invite a neighbor over for dinner to show Jesus to him. Politics have also divided the church. Christian Democrats are considered an oxymoron, and if anyone considers voting for a Democrat, immediately the sincerity of their faith in christ is questioned. I have witnessed this firsthand. It is tragic that in many circles the quality of someone's faith is measured in who they vote for.
Jesus didn't tell the disciples "Take this list of moral issues to the governor and get him to enact it". He also didn't say "We need to get a few of you in there (the govt.)and get our agenda through" He said "Go and make disciples of all nations" Christianity is always at its best when it isn't part of the establishment, when it operated separately from the world. It had more integrity and transparency. It was more attractive. But when we align ourselves with parties and politicians to enact the kingdom of God on earth, through worldly means, it has disasterous consequences for the church. Our witness is compromised, and we're taken advantage of by self serving, powerful people, and the church is always wounded as a result.
To clarify: By all means christians should stand up for their right to expression and worship. Abortion is important, just like ending the slave trade was. But at the end of the day, I'd rather spend my energy winning souls into the kingdom than knocking on doors for a politician.
I could go on with my rant, there's so much more I could say, but it's late, and I have to teach sunday school tomorrow. Good night, and have a great time at church in the morning, all of you
Mackinac
Hmmmm. Well, for some reason I can't give you any rep points right now because it says I have to spread it around. But I don't remember what I last repped you for.
Oh well, it doesn't matter. What I repped you for, you must have deserved it. So I'm repping you again for this post.
I also want to say that I'm a Christian who IS voting for Obama, and I resent other Christians trying to make me feel bad for doing that. To those Christians, I just want to say this: If you think voting McCain into office is going to somehow magically make abortion come to an end, you are seriously deluded. As has already been said, NO amount of evangelical Christian activism, nor a Republican administration since Roe v. Wade, has succeeded in abolishing abortion. You may think a vote for McCain will mean an end to abortion, but it WON'T. It's highly unlikely that anything will change under another Republican administration.
Several seats on the Supreme Court are possibly coming open this term, so yes a vote for McCain can have a very direct impact on the overturn of legalized abortion.
Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't.
Has anyone considered that the war in the middle east might be part of God's end time plan? I am not anywhere near an expert on eschatology, but what I read in the bible and end times has a lot to do with war and the middle east. Can't read the bible and think that God doesn't know a thing or two about war, so equating conservatives with warmongering and war as a sin, well, you might just be calling our God the same thing, so I'd be careful before spitting that tag line around too liberally.
Originally posted by SaintMarks
Several seats on the Supreme Court are possibly coming open this term, so yes a vote for McCain can have a very direct impact on the overturn of legalized abortion.
Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't.
Thaks SaintMarks. I don't think either guy would have appointed someone conservative enough anyway. McCain voted for Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the most liberal justice on the court, so as far as that goes, it's a wash. And on the bright side, the oldest justices are liberals, so at worst, he'd be replacing a liberal with another liberal. No net gain.
Originally posted by SaintMarks
Can't read the bible and think that God doesn't know a thing or two about war, so equating conservatives with warmongering and war as a sin, well, you might just be calling our God the same thing, so I'd be careful before spitting that tag line around too liberally.
I forgot to clarify this this part too. I never said that war itself is a sin. If I thought that was the case then, I'd be accusing God of sinning, and we both know that's not possible. Also, my comments are NOT directed at soldiers, who are courageous upstanding people. But it seems that the difference was that God commanded the israelites to go to war to conquer the land that was given to them. For his own reasons, the wars of conquest were just.
Even in the new testament, St. Paul says that government has the right to bear the sword. I accept that. Jesus' teachings about non-violence relate to individuals, and not nations. And centuries of christian teaching have been built around the "just war" theory. And one component of that theory is that pre-emptive war is wrong. Iraq did not attack us, nor was it about to attack us, but we attacked them because we thought they might attack us. Well, many countries, might attack us, and we can't just go around the world attacking these countries, creating situations where people--soldiers and civilians--may needlessly die.
I want to say that I am happy that Iraq is doing great, and that Iraqis are free, and that Saddam is gone. I am happy that the troops have not committed war crimes, like other countries' troops might. Both they and Iraqis have done a fantastic job of stemming the violence and hats off to them. But on the flipside, America cannot just routinely go into other countries militarily like this 1) we can't afford it and 2) doing so does create a situation in which many innocent lives are lost. and 3) it's a dangerous precedent for us, and for other countries to follow, in that it can lead to more war. That is what I consider warmongering, and because the administration has done this, I cannot support them.
Several seats on the Supreme Court are possibly coming open this term, so yes a vote for McCain can have a very direct impact on the overturn of legalized abortion.
Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't.
Has anyone considered that the war in the middle east might be part of God's end time plan? I am not anywhere near an expert on eschatology, but what I read in the bible and end times has a lot to do with war and the middle east. Can't read the bible and think that God doesn't know a thing or two about war, so equating conservatives with warmongering and war as a sin, well, you might just be calling our God the same thing, so I'd be careful before spitting that tag line around too liberally.
At most, McCain has said he favors letting the states decide. So what if the states decide to permit abortion? And beyond that, he has stated he is okay with abortion in the cases of rape, incest, or when the mother's life is in danger. That hardly sounds like a position that any Christian should be supporting, either.
You almost sound like you're rooting for a war. Funny how Jesus told us to love our enemies - not blow them up.
At any rate, it really doesn't matter what any Christians say on this matter, because it won't change my mind. I'm voting for Obama.
Originally posted by SaintMarks
Has anyone considered that the war in the middle east might be part of God's end time plan? I am not anywhere near an expert on eschatology, but what I read in the bible and end times has a lot to do with war and the middle east.
I wanted to respond to this earlier, but I had to get to church
I've heard a lot of people throw out the "It could be the end times, so there's no point in promoting peace" argument. But there are two flaws to that, IMO
1) We don't know if it were an end times scenario being played out (Honestly, the church doesn't have a good track record on figuring this out) and,
2) Jesus said, "Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God" Pretty simple if you ask me.
Unless Jesus visibly comes back and says that the palestinian/israeli conflict is part of the end times, I'll err on the side of supporting those who work for peace.
No, I am not excited about a war. I am passionate for Jesus' return. Yet I cannot read scripture and see that Jesus' return will be marked by world peace that everyone from tree huggers to beauty contestants lift up as the highest ideal one can attain for in this life.
Not that peace is something that isn't in the Christian's heart and spirit to pray for and believe for and long for. However, I can't see that there is any true and lasting peace promised us outside of the Prince of Peace and His kingdom come on earth. Praying and working toward a politically mandated world peace and new world order are anti biblical and go against all I glean from the scriptures concerning the end times and Jesus' return. His coming again is the only peace I put any faith in.
God isn't bound by any politician's particular beliefs to have his will done. He spoke through a donkey before, he can do it again. Still, I will vote for one whose political philosophy most lines up with what I see as best lines up with biblical truth, even if God's plan is to allow someone with a slant that is further afield from truth. The government is upon his shoulder and no country, no political party, no philosophy will stand against his will being done.
That said, I will never vote for Obama (I've already voted, so that won't happen anyway) even though I can bow my knee to the Throne of God and realize that God in his wisdom could allow this man to be the President. Doesn't mean I will like it, doesn't mean I won't stand against policies that I disagree with if Obama and his party come into a degree of political power that the dems haven't seen in decades, and with a much more liberal stance than when they have held that amount of power before.
The church is what is on God's heart. Jesus is far more interested in his bride than he is in who wins an election. He is more concerned with her perfection and building her than he is in this great country that I love. Thus, I love his church even more than I love this country, and I am as red, white and blue flag waving, American loving as you get.
The church thrives in the midst of political adversity, from the New Testament church to the great growth of the church in China under heavy persecution by the communist government. If we turn this Tuesday to the most liberal government in American history, it will come with great cosequence to the church (hope you all realize that I mean the bible believing born again church, not the lame brand of Christianity that is preached in many buildings with the name "church" posted out front). The left wing of the democratic party has much hatred for the church. You don't have to go far in this very forum to see that it is alive and well and full of vitriol and hatred toward those that are disciples of Christ.
The one thing that comforts me in this political era is that God is up to something, that the church is about to go through great growth and increase in spritual power. We in the church have seen that a political answer is not the key to "his kingdom come, his will be done." God himself is the key to this.
Still, I pray for God to have mercy on us and I hope and trust that a miracle will happen Tuesday and Obama will be sent back to Chicago. Have mercy on this country Lord!
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