U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-03-2008, 09:37 AM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,284,317 times
Reputation: 330

Advertisements

Be careful where you get your info from. We are one body, but there are many churches. Way too many, in fact. And many of them have very contradicting doctrines so please spare me the vision of everyone holding hands in a circle singing Kumbaya. The protestant world has split, and will split on a continuous basis at the first sign of disagreement.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-05-2008, 08:15 AM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,284,317 times
Reputation: 330
Nice work, my protestant brothers and sisters. You have effectively let this thread slip out of sight. Oh, wait....

One Church or 32,000+ churches. The latter is the reality. Since you good folks are clearly in charge of truth, this chaos must be the way Jesus wanted it. Unity, ah, that's highly over-rated.

Kumbaya, my Lord.....Kum-ba-ya.......
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-05-2008, 09:02 AM
 
3,086 posts, read 5,563,090 times
Reputation: 967
Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
Nice work, my protestant brothers and sisters. You have effectively let this thread slip out of sight. Oh, wait....

One Church or 32,000+ churches. The latter is the reality. Since you good folks are clearly in charge of truth, this chaos must be the way Jesus wanted it. Unity, ah, that's highly over-rated.

Kumbaya, my Lord.....Kum-ba-ya.......
Well, I know you're not talking to me since you said "protestant".. and I had thought of replying to your post, but just let it go.. but since you want to have dialogue about it, here are my beliefs:

I agree with your belief of Jesus starting one Church, which has continued unadulterated through time from the beginning. It is obvious that there can only be one Truth... and since error began to be accepted among Christians from the very beginning of Church history, many different churches have resulted.

You are looking at Catholic history and saying "This is clearly the church that has stood the test of time.. after all, it can trace unbroken history all the way back to Peter". Even if this was so, is this proof of being the true Church? Not at all. For example, Satan has also existed from the beginning of time, and this of course does not mean that Satan is "Truth". So we need to look for other evidence. A continued succession of leadership and doctrine means absolutely NOTHING if the Holy Spirit is not present and being followed. There are obvious times in your church history where the leadership of the Holy Spirit was absent, in fact, the devil's work was being promoted (for example, periods in history where genuine born-again Christians whose lives were above Biblical reproach were horribly tortured and put to death for issues such as believing in a believer's baptism instead of infant baptism, etc.)

In other words, you are looking at the word "Catholic" and saying "There is the true church", regardless of evidence. That is exactly the same as saying to anyone that calls himself a Christian, that he is a Christian regardless of evidence. This clearly is deception. What you do is proof of what you are, every time.

So if the Church is still around (as Jesus promised it would be), where is it? Again, fruits and evidence. It may have existed under different names throughout history, or maybe sometimes under no "name" at all, but it will have shone as a guiding light, traceable throughout history. Its doctrines will be unadulterated.. nothing added, nothing taken away. The Holy Spirit's presence will be evident among the Church's direction, and first of all among each member individually. (Members make up the Church.. the Church does not sanctify members.) Unrepentant sin will not be condoned.. the believers will be living an abundant, fruitful Christian life, accountable to God and each other. Genuine love and spiritual concern will be evident: "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples..."

Once again, an organization's roots may go down ever so deep, but no matter how tall the tree, the fruit doesn't lie.

Last edited by cg81; 11-05-2008 at 09:12 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-05-2008, 05:44 PM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,284,317 times
Reputation: 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
Well, I know you're not talking to me since you said "protestant".. and I had thought of replying to your post, but just let it go.. but since you want to have dialogue about it, here are my beliefs:

I agree with your belief of Jesus starting one Church, which has continued unadulterated through time from the beginning. It is obvious that there can only be one Truth... and since error began to be accepted among Christians from the very beginning of Church history, many different churches have resulted.

You are looking at Catholic history and saying "This is clearly the church that has stood the test of time.. after all, it can trace unbroken history all the way back to Peter". Even if this was so, is this proof of being the true Church? Not at all. For example, Satan has also existed from the beginning of time, and this of course does not mean that Satan is "Truth". So we need to look for other evidence. A continued succession of leadership and doctrine means absolutely NOTHING if the Holy Spirit is not present and being followed. There are obvious times in your church history where the leadership of the Holy Spirit was absent, in fact, the devil's work was being promoted (for example, periods in history where genuine born-again Christians whose lives were above Biblical reproach were horribly tortured and put to death for issues such as believing in a believer's baptism instead of infant baptism, etc.)

In other words, you are looking at the word "Catholic" and saying "There is the true church", regardless of evidence. That is exactly the same as saying to anyone that calls himself a Christian, that he is a Christian regardless of evidence. This clearly is deception. What you do is proof of what you are, every time.

So if the Church is still around (as Jesus promised it would be), where is it? Again, fruits and evidence. It may have existed under different names throughout history, or maybe sometimes under no "name" at all, but it will have shone as a guiding light, traceable throughout history. Its doctrines will be unadulterated.. nothing added, nothing taken away. The Holy Spirit's presence will be evident among the Church's direction, and first of all among each member individually. (Members make up the Church.. the Church does not sanctify members.) Unrepentant sin will not be condoned.. the believers will be living an abundant, fruitful Christian life, accountable to God and each other. Genuine love and spiritual concern will be evident: "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples..."

Once again, an organization's roots may go down ever so deep, but no matter how tall the tree, the fruit doesn't lie.
"...nothing added, nothing taken away."

How do you determine if something was added or something was taken away?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-05-2008, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 5,960,570 times
Reputation: 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on it!

At first glance, I thought you were referring to a group of local people meeting in Jesus' name, having no creed or doctrine or leadership or building (and maybe that IS what you were referring to)..

Jesus did say "where two or three are gathered, there am I", and I believe that He is here among us as we gather in His name. But while this is a gathering of believers, I'm not sure if it constitutes what He had in mind for the church.

To go over these points:

.. I would say that #1 & 3 are the least important. Perhaps it is also rather unimportant to have a creed. However, (point # 2) to the church was given the task of holding and teaching sound doctrine, and to keep this in unity. They were all led of the Spirit, had entered in by the same door, and were equally submissive to each other. I think we have a good thing going here.. we can edify one another.. but I'm not sure if we're really experiencing this part in fullness online... "Being of one accord, of one mind".

But if you look at that, then you might start wondering if alot of "churches" are really "church".
I agree, #1 is of very little importance. Nevertheless, there needs to be a "place" for the 2 or 3 to meet. Although cyberspace is a "place", I prefer the physicality of a "place". I think we need to look each other in the eyes so to speak. Cyberspace is better than no "place", but in my opinion it's lacking.
Regarding #2, we need "sound" doctrine, which I believe requires leadership (#3) to guard it.
Creeds(#4) are a good foundation upon which to build unity. We need to begin with what we can agree upon.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-06-2008, 07:20 AM
 
3,086 posts, read 5,563,090 times
Reputation: 967
Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
"...nothing added, nothing taken away."

How do you determine if something was added or something was taken away?
Well, the first and obvious way would be if we clearly neglect one portion of doctrine, rather stressing another (e.g: talking about God's love, forgetting about His judgment on sin etc.)

The less obvious way we can determine this is how it "adds or takes away" (or more likely, takes away) from our relationship with God, or if what we are doing hinders the work of the Holy Spirit or promotes the flesh instead of glorifying God (for example, adding many rituals etc to our worship). Rituals in themself may not be wrong, however legalism is abhorrent to God. The evident and present Holy Spirit in each life will be proof that we are not adding or taking away unduly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
I agree, #1 is of very little importance. Nevertheless, there needs to be a "place" for the 2 or 3 to meet. Although cyberspace is a "place", I prefer the physicality of a "place". I think we need to look each other in the eyes so to speak. Cyberspace is better than no "place", but in my opinion it's lacking.
I agree. There's nothing like actual fellowship with brothers & sisters.
Quote:
Regarding #2, we need "sound" doctrine, which I believe requires leadership (#3) to guard it.
I agree in a certain sense.. and yet "leaders" are not mini-Gods, like they may have appeared in the Old Testament. The New Testament made us all "kings and priests", and leaders are accountable to the people just as much as people are accountable to leaders. No one man or group of people can have the final say... God's plan for the new dispensation has each on an equal level, following the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will "lead into all truth", and thus we can all in unity guard sound doctrine by following the Holy Spirit, not by one person's authority or interpretation.

I agree that a statement of belief written down is good.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-06-2008, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 5,960,570 times
Reputation: 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
Well, the first and obvious way would be if we clearly neglect one portion of doctrine, rather stressing another (e.g: talking about God's love, forgetting about His judgment on sin etc.)

The less obvious way we can determine this is how it "adds or takes away" (or more likely, takes away) from our relationship with God, or if what we are doing hinders the work of the Holy Spirit or promotes the flesh instead of glorifying God (for example, adding many rituals etc to our worship). Rituals in themself may not be wrong, however legalism is abhorrent to God. The evident and present Holy Spirit in each life will be proof that we are not adding or taking away unduly.

I agree. There's nothing like actual fellowship with brothers & sisters.

I agree in a certain sense.. and yet "leaders" are not mini-Gods, like they may have appeared in the Old Testament. The New Testament made us all "kings and priests", and leaders are accountable to the people just as much as people are accountable to leaders. No one man or group of people can have the final say... God's plan for the new dispensation has each on an equal level, following the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will "lead into all truth", and thus we can all in unity guard sound doctrine by following the Holy Spirit, not by one person's authority or interpretation.

I agree that a statement of belief written down is good.
We can save the apostolic succession discussion for another day
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-06-2008, 02:12 PM
 
3,086 posts, read 5,563,090 times
Reputation: 967
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
We can save the apostolic succession discussion for another day
That would be an interesting discussion, to be sure.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-06-2008, 05:46 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,813,518 times
Reputation: 1300
Maybe this would answer the question,

1 Corinthians 1:10
[ Divisions in the Church ] I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.

Does this verse sounds like this forum?
Some believe the trinity while others do not
Some believe that baptism saves while others do not
Some believe that the Bible is inerrant while others think its flawed
Some believe Jesus=God, others do not
Some believe that there is only one true church, others do not
Some believe that there is a difference between hell, hades, eternal death others do not
Some believe that obeying the law makes them a christian, others do not
Some believe in a millennium teaching, others do not
Some believe that Christ came already, others do not
Some believe that we should over look our differences for the sake of unity, others do not
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-06-2008, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 5,960,570 times
Reputation: 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Maybe this would answer the question,

1 Corinthians 1:10
[ Divisions in the Church ] I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.

Does this verse sounds like this forum?
Some believe the trinity while others do not
Some believe that baptism saves while others do not
Some believe that the Bible is inerrant while others think its flawed
Some believe Jesus=God, others do not
Some believe that there is only one true church, others do not
Some believe that there is a difference between hell, hades, eternal death others do not
Some believe that obeying the law makes them a christian, others do not
Some believe in a millennium teaching, others do not
Some believe that Christ came already, others do not
Some believe that we should over look our differences for the sake of unity, others do not
the earthly "body of Christ" is still wounded.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top