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Old 01-16-2009, 08:31 AM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
3,978 posts, read 7,483,045 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna Kupp View Post
I have studied the book of Hebrews. What would you like to talk about?

Here is Jesus' message to the churches:

"Blessed are they that DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." Revelation 22:14-15

John, the beloved apostle said this to Christians:

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
1 John 2:4

Donna Kupp

The Seven Deadly Deceptions Of Counterfeit Christianity
freetruth.info
Hmmmm, funny, none of your quotes are from the book of Hebrews.....

I espacially do not know your purpose of posting the Rev. scripture!
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Old 01-16-2009, 09:38 AM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
3,978 posts, read 7,483,045 times
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As for the old and the new, Jesus said, " No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch pulls away from the garment , and the tear is made worse.
Neither do they put new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined.But they put the new wine into new wineskins and both are preserved. "
Matt.9: 16,17

As for Matt 5:17,18 , regardless of the "till heaven abnd earth pass away" (which many debate what that means , anyway), it was "fulfilled' on the cross. And yes, the Old Law commandments were still in effect until Jesus died on the cross, and was resurrected. The New Law was put into effect on that day of Pentecost.
The Old Law is still recorded in the Bible, but even the Jews no longer abide by it. The inspired words, both in the old and the new testaments, will remain as long as the heaven and earth do. That does not say the Old Law is still to be observed. It was to be observed until the new covenant was established.
Somewhere, in the Old Testament books, is a passage that plainly states that the Sabbath was not given to 'us', but was given to those who came out of Egypt. I saw it years ago, but have not been able to find it now. Hopefully someone can find it for me?

I cannot quote the entire book of Hebrews, but it is almost all about the doing away of the Law. Many chose to pick what part of that old law was done away. It does not say part of it was done away, and part not done away. The 10 commandments were definitely part of the old law.

The new law contains all the principles of all of those commandments. The Day we observe for the Lord is expanded , just as all of the others are. ( They are actually made even more important). The main differance is the lack of a commandment to observe the sabbath as a day of rest. It certainly can be observed as a day to worship God with your fellow believers. If anyone choses to rest on the day they chose for the Lord, that is fine, but it is not binding on Christians.

Jesus said, " Come unto Me, and I will give you rest."

Hebrews 3: 18 and 19. and 4: 1 through 11, speaks of the rest Jesus will give us.

Col. 2: So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
3 which are a shadow of things to come, but the sustance is of Christ.

In Acts 13:26 and 27, John the baptizer is quoted about the Jews, and Christ's fulfilment. The Sabbath is mentioned .

Paul reasoned with them in the synagogue every Sabbath, because that is where the people gathered (mostly Jews, but also some Gentiles). Acts 18: 4

" You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain." Galatians 4:10 and 11
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Old 01-16-2009, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Arizona
777 posts, read 1,255,585 times
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Quote:
regardless of the "till heaven abnd earth pass away" (which many debate what that means , anyway)
Regardless of what Jesus said!!! He didn't really mean it.

Debate?
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away
Rev 21:1
I don't expect everyone to begin keeping the Sabbath, but at least I've had my part in trying to teach people what it is about.
I do think it interesting that the same people who redefine the Sabbath, fight hard against the redefining of the beginning of life in the womb.

Both pertain to the Ten Commandments.
Why is the Sabbath the only one to be disposed of - or redefined?
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Old 01-16-2009, 10:21 AM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
3,978 posts, read 7,483,045 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richio View Post
Regardless of what Jesus said!!! He didn't really mean it.

Debate?
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away
Rev 21:1
I don't expect everyone to begin keeping the Sabbath, but at least I've had my part in trying to teach people what it is about.
I do think it interesting that the same people who redefine the Sabbath, fight hard against the redefining of the beginning of life in the womb.

Both pertain to the Ten Commandments.
Why is the Sabbath the only one to be disposed of - or redefined?
I am glad you put the 'some' in that sentence. I would hate hated for it to have been a blanket statement.

I am in total agreement with the Rev. 21:1 verse....
I think I may of clarified my view on the verse quoting Jesus, if you read all that I posted on the old law.
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Old 01-16-2009, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Arizona
777 posts, read 1,255,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marianinark View Post
I am glad you put the 'some' in that sentence. I would hate hated for it to have been a blanket statement.

I am in total agreement with the Rev. 21:1 verse....
I think I may of clarified my view on the verse quoting Jesus, if you read all that I posted on the old law.
Actually it was a blanket statement, but I was being a bit impish.

Most if not all 7th day people abhor abortion.
Many Sunday Christians do as well.
However, there are also some Sunday Christians who think of it as a grey area or are even in favor of it.

Yes, I did read all of what you had written, but I don't agree with it.
There is a difference between the Ten Commandments and the rules and regulations given separately.

I have noticed that Matthew 5:19 seems to indicate that Sunday Christians will be in heaven.
If only Sabbath keepers were admitted, it would be a lonely place.
If letter of the Law Sabbath keepers were excluded, it would be a very lonely place indeed.
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Old 01-16-2009, 12:22 PM
JLA
 
627 posts, read 1,948,574 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richio View Post
Actually it was a blanket statement, but I was being a bit impish.


There is a difference between the Ten Commandments and the rules and regulations given separately.

I have noticed that Matthew 5:19 seems to indicate that Sunday Christians will be in heaven.
If only Sabbath keepers were admitted, it would be a lonely place.
If letter of the Law Sabbath keepers were excluded, it would be a very lonely place indeed.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Help!! What does Sunday worship have to do with the quote from Jesus? Seems black and white to me, there are no gray areas in His statement. If a person teach truth or lies, he/she will be rewarded accordingly. If a person knowingly break the commandments that person will be rewarded accordingly. Also, Sabbath observance has a long history which dates back to Adam and Eve, so there will be numerous people there in heaven. As a matter of fact John said that there will be so many people in heaven that man would not be able to number them. Of course I'm not crazy enough to believe that all those people there would have been Sabbath keepers on earth and I thank God for His mercy and grace, else none of us will be saved. They will however, be keeping the Sabbath in heaven. But, the willful disobedient will not make it and there's plenty of scripture to support that. God Bless.
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Old 01-16-2009, 01:40 PM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
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"Sabbath observance has a long history which dates back to Adam and Eve, "

I am not trying to be contentious, but where is the Sabbath mentioned before Exodus 16:23, other than in Genesis where it says God rested on the seventh day, and blessed it and sanctified it. I do not find it called the "Sabbath" until Exodus 16: 23.
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Old 01-16-2009, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Arizona
777 posts, read 1,255,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLA View Post

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Help!! What does Sunday worship have to do with the quote from Jesus? Seems black and white to me, there are no gray areas in His statement. If a person teach truth or lies, he/she will be rewarded accordingly. If a person knowingly break the commandments that person will be rewarded accordingly. Also, Sabbath observance has a long history which dates back to Adam and Eve, so there will be numerous people there in heaven. As a matter of fact John said that there will be so many people in heaven that man would not be able to number them. Of course I'm not crazy enough to believe that all those people there would have been Sabbath keepers on earth and I thank God for His mercy and grace, else none of us will be saved. They will however, be keeping the Sabbath in heaven. But, the willful disobedient will not make it and there's plenty of scripture to support that. God Bless.
The quote from Jesus has to do with keeping the commandments of God.
One of those commandments would be number four - designating the seventh day as the Sabbath and telling is to remember it and to keep it reserved unto Him.
I agree. Willful disobedience - without repentance, would disqualify a person from heaven.
The vast majority of people follow the teachings of man without question and so God might give them a "pass" since they keep the Sabbath as they understand it.
If a person's conscience convicts them, then they sin, however just because their conscience is clear, it doesn't mean they're guiltless.

We'll have to let God figure out what constitutes what.
The truth is that He seems quite active in the lives of Sunday Christians, but those in Matthew 7:23 were convinced so too.
I didn't want to be among them for whatever reason.

Scripture's pretty clear that we shouldn't hold to the traditions and precepts of man, when they are in conflict with what God has said.
Because of the various warnings against being deceived by man, I determined to seek only God's will without first filtering it through everything I've been taught.
I want to keep the sabbath, since it was important enough to Him to include it among the Ten.
In researching the topic, it became clear that Sunday wasn't the day to be kept.

All I can do is try to teach people the difference between the Commandments and the regulations.
The rest (no pun intended) should be self explanatory.

If it isn't:
We're not under those regulations, but the law we're free from is the law (small L) of sin and death, not the Ten Commandments. (Romans 8)
The law of the wages of sin, is not the same as the Commandments - the difference is that now we are to follow them because we want to and not because we have to.
I'm not saying we don't have to - but it is all about the motivation of the heart.
Whether the Law concerns looking at a woman with lust or hating our enemies - in terms of the heart, Jesus calls us to a higher call than mere adherence.
We persist in thinking of freedom from the (capital L) Law, but we can't distinguish between the commandments and the regulations concerning ceremonial cleansing and such.
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Old 01-16-2009, 02:12 PM
 
5,441 posts, read 4,686,835 times
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Did you know that debating the scripture is sin?

(2 Corinthians 12:21) "Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying. For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed."

Explain the scripture. If all someone wants to do is debate, then move on. The scriptures speak for themselves.
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Old 01-16-2009, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Arizona
777 posts, read 1,255,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Did you know that debating the scripture is sin?

(2 Corinthians 12:21) "Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying. For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed."

Explain the scripture. If all someone wants to do is debate, then move on. The scriptures speak for themselves.
I have stated my case and when asked to clarify, I try to be complete.

I really don't think there is any more I can add, and so at this point continuing would indeed become debate.
As I've said, I don't expect people to abandon the familiar.
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