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Old 12-11-2008, 07:50 AM
 
302 posts, read 467,274 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quesodano View Post
It is my hope that as brothers we can understand that neither we nor the traditions of our fathers are the key to eternal life. As a growing follower of Christ my walk changes as my understanding changes. I pray that we seek this understanding by the gift of the Holy Spirit, as we read His Word. We are taught that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 NASB. Since the Word was with God in the beginning, and all things came into being thru Him.....perhaps we should pay attention to what was given us in the beginning so that we might better understand what the writers of the New Testament were trying to convey. My simple contention is that even when a truth is passed down the line by man, it changes on each reiteration. The only foundation that we have is the Word.

For so long as a believer did I concentrate on the writings of the New Testament as my foundation. Things seem to change perspective as I read the "new to me" Old Testament. I feel confident in the questions that I have of the handings down of men. We are after all easily fallible. Our salvation did not come to us by the works, or traditions of men. I feel that we should look at it further than is typical. Being comfortable doesn’t always mean you are where you should be. It is our thirst for the truth and Light of the world that leads us into the Uncomfort zone. Taking something that is taught by man could lead to pit falls. Traditionally we have been taught from solely the writings of the Apostles. These men were Jews, writing from a tradition/culture that is alien to most of us. We have been given voluminous insight and teachings through the Old Testament. This is also the Word of God. I did not write was the Word as He is constant.

Thank you Lord for the Gift of the Word.
Amen! Thank God for His Word. It is our protection against deceptions that will lead to our destruction.

We must use the teaching of Jesus and the Old Testament Scriptures for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness. All things must be rejected if they don't agree with them. (Including the letter of Ignatius or any other church father.)

THE SCRIPTURES PRE-EXIST THE CHURCH

Timothy was born at Lystra and had a Greek father and a Jewish mother. His grandmother (Lois) and mother (Eunice) taught him the scriptures from childhood. So, when Paul wrote these words to Timothy, he was referring ONLY to the Old Testament Scriptures:

"And that from a CHILD thou hast known the holy scriptures, WHICH ARE ABLE TO MAKE THEE WISE UNTO SALVATION THROUGH FAITH WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." 2 Tim 3:15-16

An Old Testament saint, Timothy's grandmother, believed in Jesus because the scriptures testified of him. That second letter of Paul to Timothy (Now part of The New Testament) gives us irrefutable evidence that **The Old Testament Scriptures have greater authority than the traditions of the church.**

Donna Kupp
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Old 12-11-2008, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Arizona
777 posts, read 1,254,357 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
Inward Sabbath of the soul will cause you to delight in the outward keeping of the Sabbath! The keeping of God's laws never changes. Those who fear God will Keep/obey His Words.

The Sabbath is hard to keep because people want to do their own thing! Some use the excuse, (and there are plenty) they would'nt be able to live/provide for their families. I ask: how would you know if you will 'live' if you don't keep it? Think on this and be bless.


Your sister in Christ Jesus
The Law has not changed, but I think how we are to keep it has changed.

The Sabbath only seems hard to keep, if one approaches it in the letter of the Law.
I tried it 25 years ago, but I was a brand new Christian, so all I knew to do was stay in my room.
That was too hard and only lasted for two weeks.

Now, I understand it a little better and I look forward to it. It's a day separated for God - that's what "holy" (for humans) means.
I like not having a schedule to keep - studying the Word, listening to a sermon, napping when I feel like it, and bothering you guys.
In the past year of doing that, I've changed and grown a great deal.
I'm not "there" yet, but 'much better off spiritually than I had been.

Keeping the Sabbath does make one different from the world, but we're supposed to be different.
Even Christians don't understand it and want to label me as: "one of THOSE".
That's OK.
They don't know what they're missing, though.

In "working out my own "salvation" with fear and trembling", I've gotten to know the difference between the letter of the Law and the spirit of the Law.
And in doing so, I've become a lot more tolerant and a little bit more loving.

I may fear YHWH, but I know that the Lord of the Sabbath is my mediator, so I obey the Sabbath to please God because I want to please Him.

"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

John 4:23,24

I'm no better than anyone else, and I don't get brownie points for the Sabbath. That's not what it's about.

It's about priorities and the motivation of the heart.
It's not about strict adherence to rules, but obedience to the spirit of the Law.

If something needs to be done and it cannot be done any other time, I think there is liberty.

"The Sabbath was made for people. People were not created to serve the Sabbath."
In that, is freedom and grace.
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Old 12-13-2008, 02:34 PM
 
302 posts, read 467,274 times
Reputation: 82
Default Every day is not god's holy day

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
Everyday is the "Lords Day", the Sabbath for myself..Jesus did necessary work on the sabbath to show us that even He is not idle from the work it takes to keep our human bodies alive and well..I have Him within me all the time 24/7..Each day I pray that others may get a glimpse of him through me, even on Sunday
If you use the scriptures for your authority, every day is not God's Holy Day.

The seventh day was sanctified by The Creator as the Sabbath; but some Christians reject the seventh day and justify their disobedience by saying: "I keep every day holy" or "I am sure God couldn't care less what day of the week people worship" They are wrong!

The Sabbath Commandment honors The God who created the heavens and the earth. The severity of His punishments for profaning the sabbath show us how much God cares about His Holy Day ...

The Manna:
"Six days ye shall gather it; [the manna] but on the **seventh day**, which is the Sabbath, in it there shall be none. And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the **seventh day** for to gather, and they found none.


And the LORD said unto Moses, **How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?**" Exodus 16:26-28 (KJV)

The man, who presumptuously gathered sticks on the Sabbath:

"And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... and the LORD said unto Moses, **The man shall be surely put to death:** all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses." Num 15:32-36 (KJV)

The judgments of God upon a nation that refused to keep the Sabbath Day holy: (See Jer 17:19-27).*

1. The wall of Jerusalem was broken down.
2. The temple was burned. The palaces were burned.
3. Gedaliah was killed --which completed the dispersion.
4. Jerusalem was sieged and had a famine of no bread.
5. The Jews were carried into captivity for seventy years.
The Creator takes His Holy Day seriously --and so should we.

Exod 20:8-10
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the **seventh day** is the sabbath of the LORD

Donna Kupp

* Jer 52:6, Jer 52:12-13, 2 Kings 25:25, 2 Kings 25:1
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Old 12-13-2008, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Tulsa
2,529 posts, read 3,794,719 times
Reputation: 549
I've always wondered...why people who believe we are still under the old law, such as observing the Sabbath, why they don't observe all of the old testament laws?

I for one believe the NT does teach that we are no longer under the OT, and that we have examples of the new Christians meeting on Sundays. Every one of the "ten commandments" have been repeated in the NT with the exception of observe the Sabbath.

So for those of you who believe the OT is still in effect, why do you not observe all of it?

Thanks!
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Old 12-13-2008, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Arizona
777 posts, read 1,254,357 times
Reputation: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn View Post
I've always wondered...why people who believe we are still under the old law, such as observing the Sabbath, why they don't observe all of the old testament laws?

I for one believe the NT does teach that we are no longer under the OT, and that we have examples of the new Christians meeting on Sundays. Every one of the "ten commandments" have been repeated in the NT with the exception of observe the Sabbath.

So for those of you who believe the OT is still in effect, why do you not observe all of it?

Thanks!
Hi MzJamieDawn,
Welcome to the board.

The Old Covenant has been superseded by the New Covenant, but the Ten Commandments still stand.

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;
but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:17-20

“The Law” here refers to the Ten Commandments.

Sometimes, Scripture refers to “The Law” as the Law given to the Israelites concerning regulations for offerings and for living.

Jesus came and offered the perfect sacrifice once and for all.

But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come,
He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands,
that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves,
but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God,
cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Hebrews 9:11-14


but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people,
because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
Hebrews 7:24-27


Now those regulations are obsolete unless one does not accept the New Covenant.

When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
Hebrews 8:13


Those who keep the Old Testament Law must keep all of it.

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
James 2:10


Yet Jesus declared Himself to be Lord of the Sabbath. (Mat 12:8)
Remember that the He did not come to abolish the Ten Commandments,
so considering that God went to all the trouble of establishing the Sabbath, it is important to Him.
If people also want to meet on other days, that is alright, but the Sabbath is still the Sabbath.
The 7th Day as not changed.

I do not know why people insist that the Lord of the Sabbath came to abolish the Sabbath.

I suppose they prefer the “official day of worship” ordained by the RCC circa 320AD.
It’s just more “convenient” to be in sync with the rest of the world.
(Rev 14:12)(1John 5:2,3)
I "wonder" what God thinks of His commandment being set aside in favor of the traditions of man. (Mat 15:8,9)

What Jesus did come to abolish, were the Old Covenant regulations and restrictions – the letter of the Law.

"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt,
My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD,
"I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Jeremiah 31:32,33


We are to keep the Ten Commandments from the heart – making the Commandments of Jesus to love - a motivational factor. (Mat 5:27,28)

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound,
so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Romans 7:6

so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:4,5

For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:14


This is why we keep the Sabbath, but not the whole law – meaning the regulations concerning offerings and such.

Unfortunately, many 7th day people do not understand the spirit of the Law.
I don’t know of any on this forum, though.

Last edited by Richio; 12-13-2008 at 05:39 PM.. Reason: Added: it is important to Him. (Bold Brown)
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Old 12-13-2008, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Arizona
777 posts, read 1,254,357 times
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Even the Jews can't keep the whole Law at this time.
There is no temple - no place for offerings as prescribed.
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Old 12-13-2008, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Tulsa
2,529 posts, read 3,794,719 times
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Wow, thank you Richio! That is the best explanation I've heard, not that I've heard many, which is why I was still curious...haha. I appreciate the effort you put into answering my question!
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Old 12-13-2008, 10:17 PM
JLA
 
627 posts, read 1,946,604 times
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Richio, very good explanation of obedience because of love for Jesus. Also, Paul uses Jeremiah 31:32, 33 in Hebrews 8:9, 10 when speaking of the New Covenant.
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Old 12-13-2008, 11:15 PM
JLA
 
627 posts, read 1,946,604 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn View Post
I've always wondered...why people who believe we are still under the old law, such as observing the Sabbath, why they don't observe all of the old testament laws?

I for one believe the NT does teach that we are no longer under the OT, and that we have examples of the new Christians meeting on Sundays. Every one of the "ten commandments" have been repeated in the NT with the exception of observe the Sabbath.

So for those of you who believe the OT is still in effect, why do you not observe all of it?

Thanks!
The following are examples of Christians meeting on the first day of the week.
John 20:19 (fear of the Jews, no church service)
Acts 20:7 (Paul is preaching, this preaching would have started after the Sabbath hours, which we call Saturday night).
1 Cor 16:2 (Concerning a collection for saints in Jerusalem)
I can not find a single new commandment from God to keep the first day of the week holy or as a day of worship in the OT or NT. Maybe, someone can help me with this one.

The following are examples of NT Christians meeting on the Sabbath.
Acts 13:42
Acts 13:44
Acts 16:13
Acts 17:2
Acts 18:4
Luke 4:16
Even if the references in Acts were not there, I still have Luke 4:16 and that's good enough for me.

I could be wrong, but I believe you are equating the Old Covenant between God and Israel and the OT scriptures. Although the OT is a historical and prophetic record of how God related to Israel and Gentiles, it is also a record of how God wants His people to live in the NT. For example Jesus, James, John, Paul, Peter, Mark... all use the OT scriptures as their book of choice when explaining the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the establishing of Jesus' church. The GOD of the OT scriptures is the GOD of the NT and He has not and will not change. The same GOD who said you should love Me with all of your heart, mind and soul. Also said to keep My commandments. The same GOD. And for the life of me, I can not find a single scripture, that says keep my commandments, but not the 4th. I must admit, Sunday worship is convenient. But conveniency has never been good excuse for disobedience. King Saul is a good example of someone choosing convenience over a "thus says the LORD". The final result was not pretty.
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Old 12-13-2008, 11:32 PM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,048,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna Kupp View Post
christians must be holy every day
but
every day is not god's holy day!

Quote:
Totally agree with what you have posted.... the sabbath should be in our hearts everyday He gives us breath....resting fully and completely trusting Him in all our areas of our lives. He finished it.... through Jesus Christ and there is nothing left, He has provided for all physically, spiritually, and emotionally needs through His beloved Son!!

Yes, it is nice and good to set a day aside to come together with other believers in unity of worshiping Him and fellowshipping with one another.... He tells us to do this and in doing we encourage one another as we see His glorious day approaching...and gathering together is that encouragement, to learn, listen, grow deeper in love with Him and help our brethren by praying and carrying one another's burdens as His Spirit leads in our hearts and mist!!

We truly will get into bondage if we start debating what day is the right day of the sabbath!!!

Lay it aside and love one another and if that day is Saturday or Sunday so be it....Let us rest in His grace today and all our tomorrows!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by curlythecosmo
totally agree with what you have posted.... The sabbath should be in our hearts everyday he gives us breath....resting fully and completely trusting him in all our areas of our lives. He finished it.... Through jesus christ and there is nothing left, he has provided for all physically, spiritually, and emotionally needs through his beloved son!!

Yes, it is nice and good to set a day aside to come together with other believers in unity of worshiping him and fellowshipping with one another.... He tells us to do this and in doing we encourage one another as we see his glorious day approaching...and gathering together is that encouragement, to learn, listen, grow deeper in love with him and help our brethren by praying and carrying one another's burdens as his spirit leads in our hearts and mist!!

We truly will get into bondage if we start debating what day is the right day of the sabbath!!!

Lay it aside and love one another and if that day is saturday or sunday so be it....let us rest in his grace today and all our tomorrows!!!


christians must be holy every day
Dear Donna,
I don't mind if someone disagrees with me my post....That is their choice.
But I would really appreciate in that when I write my Lords name Jesus Christ.... I LIKE it in upper case letters.
And it would be so kind of another to leave it that way... and not change another's spelling by using lower cast letters in their original.
If one choose to spell it with lower cast .....please feel free in ones own post.
To alter and add their words to anothers original post is not..... well let's just say not a good idea... IMO....
Thank You
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