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Old 11-10-2008, 06:35 AM
 
Location: Sheffield, England
2,639 posts, read 5,933,573 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VegasGrace View Post
You've been awful presumptive.... 'why should he have to worry" - I've not ever heard anyone but you say that He does.
If he's not worried that someone might go against his will then his will can't have ever been very important in the first place then. If there was the possibility of man breaking a ridiculously important part of his will then I'd think even a supreme being would be slightly concerned.
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:45 AM
 
178 posts, read 278,706 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mozart271 View Post
But I think the poster was talking about God's omniscience. I am agnostic, but I've thought about the Free Will thing. I have never figured out how you could have both an omniscient God and Free Will. If God knows all, then he already knows every choice I will make. So in essence, I have no free will, because my actions are already known. If I could have chosen to do something different, then God would have been wrong. And that can't be the case, because God is never wrong. So...I only think I have made a choice. Since all must be preordained, prayer, while it may be ordained as well, can actually make no difference. (Not counting the comfort it gives the person praying.)
Some of us believe that in God's plane of existence, there is no past, or future, just an eternal present. If He is a Being of Light, which is what the scriptures suggest, then I think this would also make sense. He knows what we are going to do, not because He knows the inevitable future, but because He is already there, watching us do it according to our own free will.

Take out the element of time, and many assumptions and conclusions that one might make regarding God go completely out the window.

Even if one believed that God resides within the same laws of time that we do though (which is not what is taught in scripture), His foreknowledge wouldn't necessarily constitute a contradiction to free-will. As a parent... though this is a rough analogy, I already know many times exactly what my children are going to do before they do it. The better I know them, the more accurate my prediction will be. This doesn't change the fact that they have free-will. My knowledge of what they will do doesn't directly affect their decision to do. God knows us perfectly.

The power of prayer is real. It does not contradict free-will or the omniscience of God.
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Old 11-10-2008, 08:29 AM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
3,978 posts, read 7,471,403 times
Reputation: 3755
I think the name of this forum needs changed to the 'Christianity Bashing' forum.
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Old 11-10-2008, 01:45 PM
 
116 posts, read 278,071 times
Reputation: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
As humans we make choices. But our choices are caused by something else. There is something causing us to act therefore we don`t have total free will. Only God has absolute free will. Nothing causes God to act. Our choices are not free from an external cause therefore they are not free! God says without me you can do nothing. That means nothing as in nothing. If God wants you to do a certain thing..you will do it. He will put circumstances in your life to make you choose what he wants you to do. He will lead you to a certain place if that is where he wants you to go. But because in our finite human minds,we see ourselves physically carrying out the act we believe we are doing things independent of God. Our pride will not let us understand and believe that there is an Amighty God who controls this world and his creation. We don`t want anybody telling us what to do or how to act. A computer makes choices. A computer makes choices based on the information you give it. The choice it makes is dependent on the information it is giving.Would you say a computer has free will. You can look at a computer proceess and spit out information but our logic tells us the computer does not have free will. We process info and make decisions but we think God had nothing to do with it. We did it all by ourselves just like the computer did it all by itself.
If God made us all do everything he wanted to make us do, we'd have a world free of crime, hatred, and atheism. If God "put circumstances" in our lives to cause us to make certain decisions, then that would mean he's making mass murderers to kill, mass rapists to rape, etc, etc, etc. That's not God. Period. If God made us do the things we do, we'd all be Christians, and it would be a perfect world. That theory makes NO sense whatsoever.
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Old 11-10-2008, 01:52 PM
 
116 posts, read 278,071 times
Reputation: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mozart271 View Post
But I think the poster was talking about God's omniscience. I am agnostic, but I've thought about the Free Will thing. I have never figured out how you could have both an omniscient God and Free Will. If God knows all, then he already knows every choice I will make. So in essence, I have no free will, because my actions are already known. If I could have chosen to do something different, then God would have been wrong. And that can't be the case, because God is never wrong. So...I only think I have made a choice. Since all must be preordained, prayer, while it may be ordained as well, can actually make no difference. (Not counting the comfort it gives the person praying.)
Just because God knows all doesn't mean he controls all. Yes, we do have free will. God knows what choices we will make in the future, and that either saddens him or gladdens him, depending on those choices. However, he is a just and a fair God. He will not MAKE anyone do anything. He invites us all to know him and trust him, but doesn't MAKE anyone do so. He gave us a free will so that we can make the choice to trust in him ourselves. What he's looking for is our heart. Our heart to know he is God above all else, that he's the beginning and the end, and that only he has the power to save us from our sins and the sins of this earth. If he made us do so, then he wouldn't have our hearts. And it would be pointless. Therefore, all-knowing..yes; all-controlling..no. It's all up to us, and our "free will".
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