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Unread 11-09-2008, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Wicker Park, Chicago
4,756 posts, read 7,181,915 times
Reputation: 1768
Quote:
Originally Posted by txguy2009 View Post
On 2) being a coincidence - but probabilistically, we know it's much more likely when there's a verbatim copy of something that it was simply copied. It's *possible* it's a coincidence, but the odds of that are staggeringly low. If you wrote something at your work, and somebody turned in something basically the same, with the same little details, what would you say? You'd accuse them of plagiarism, and rightly so. Why then do we adopt a different approach when it's religion, and suspend our usual skepticism about things?

3) Are you sure christianity is the only religion that claims certain people don't decompose? Even if they claim it, it doesn't make it so. Have scientists investigated the bodies?
Toyota was sued for the concidence of the similarity of their hybrid system to some guy's research and they have to pay him.

I have observed other religions too, maybe since I was a kid seeing my aunt's dead saints book, and never saw spiritually preserved bodies in other religions.

Here are pics of 2 dead saints I saw visiting the Miracleous Medal Church in Paris. Probably 1850 saints?
Attached Thumbnails
Christians - please justify your faith to me-01010035.jpg   Christians - please justify your faith to me-01010036.jpg  
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Unread 11-09-2008, 01:53 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 5,544,164 times
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Although this does appear to be trolling, I'll adress it simply because it needs to be.

Horus is a MYTH....one of the MANY Egyptian gods, who just happened to have a man's body and a FALCON'S HEAD. Sounds completely plausible. Not.

Where are the eye-witness accounts of Horus and his wondrous deeds?

500 people witnessed Jesus' resurrection, and it is well documented in the Bible as well as other writings.

There is absolutely no proof that this myth Horus was born to a virgin. In fact, his parents supposedly were two OTHER mythical gods named Isis and Osirus.

These "3 wise men" you mentioned were simply "3 solar dieties, in Horus' case.

THERE ARE NO SIMILARITIES. The myths have been manipulated to fit our ONE God and our ONE Savior Jesus Christ's truth simply to discredit it.

Plain and simple. Christians don't have to justify why we believe. Unbelievers will have to try to justify on judgment day as to why they DIDN'T believe, sadly to no avail.

The evidence of our Creator is clear, in plain sight and is all around us. Don't need man's "logic" or "reasoning" when God created the man who tries to "logically reason" Him away!!! Everything was created by God. Man cannot out-reason God.
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Unread 11-09-2008, 02:27 PM
Status: "But I still haven't found what I'm looking for" (set 14 hours ago)
 
Location: Texas
4,363 posts, read 3,290,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txguy2009 View Post
What specifically rings true to you? I mean are you saying we should all be pacifists and socialists (what Christ seems to have been suggesting).
Jesus never lobbied the Roman government for social justice programs. Jesus was far from a pacifist.
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Unread 11-09-2008, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
1,137 posts, read 1,592,369 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txguy2009 View Post
Hi. I guess you could say I'm agnostic, but I was raised Christian. I am wondering how intelligent Christians defend their religion?

Well, let me see if I can give you a solid reply. I want to say these things in friendship, not argument.

My main concerns about Christianity follow from 1) the fact that the bible says things which, if interpreted literally, are clearly false given our current understanding of science. E.g., the earth created in 6 days, people living for 100s of years, miracles, all life being created at once.

I have never had issue with what the Bible says, even as taken literally. Here are a few thoughts.

If God is God, I see no reason why He couldn't create the earth and all life and everything for that matter in six days. After researching carbon dating and other methods, I found that the accuracy of those methods is often in question. Items made in the 1950 were dated to millions of years.
For me, the Bible alway makes sense and I've never been at a loss to defend it.

As far as true science and the creation of the earth by God, if all things started with a Big Bang, and energy is neither created or destroyed as we now understand (laws of thermodynamics) evolution cannot explain how the energy was formed to create the "Big Bang" in the first place.

The Bible indicates that the earth is young. Evolution says it requires millions of years to explain the earth's current condition. However, known science often contradicts evolution. For example, science shows that coal, diamonds, oil and fossils can be created in a lab, not over millions of years but within a few days or less using high heat and pressure, the kind of pressure that would occur during a worldwide flood as the Bible says in Genesis.
The Hebrew, in which Genesis is written, indicates an opening in the "great deeps" of the earth. That means the entire earth's crust fractured and lava of terrific proportions exploded into the oceans. With that type of event, even continents can be created as they broke off the original Pangea.
As for peoples' great ages in the Bible, the Bible infers that that a covering of water vapor, similar in appearance to Venus' gases, once covered the earth. During the flood, that covering emptied its water content. Curiously, even secular science conjectures that if such a covering existed many of the harmful radiations that now hit the Earth would be reflected back into space. Without that radiation all lifespans, human and otherwise would be greater...and my favorite; reptiles, which never stop growing as long as they live, would grow to incredible sizes.

2) The Christ story itself follows closely to an archetype of other near eastern religions. In fact it's basically a verbatim copy of a much earlier story of the Egyptian god Horus. Three wise men bearing gifts, virgin birth, crucifixion, etc.

There is no mention of the number of wise men in the Bible. It could have been any number. Jesus' virgin birth was foretold hundreds of years prior, before it happened, down to the town where he would be born. Secular history consistantly gels with Biblical history, from towns that we thought didn't exist but the Bible said did, like Jerico, to the Roman governments choice of Jesus' execution method, the cross.


3) This pattern exists in other stories e.g. Gilgamesh being a much earlier Great Flood story.

The flood, as told in Genesis by the author, Moses, refers to a time long before the stories of Gilgamesh. The existence of a world wide flood in most cultures lends credence to the Bible's flood story, not detraction.

So how do you defend Christianity in the face of this? Please note that responses such as "science is satan's way of fooling us" or some other unfalsifiable nonsense are not acceptable answers and will be construed as an admission on your part that you cannot adequately defend your belief. Also claims such as "you just are here to make us doubt you have no place here you lack faith" or something is totally unresponsive. I don't mean to be harsh or trolling by putting these conditions on your responses, but it seems to me that these are fallacious ways that some christians try to stifle any honest and open communication about their beliefs.

All I seek is an intellectually honest and plausible (given our knowledge of science and human nature - specifically the propensity to copy earlier works) defense of the claim that Christianity has a unique claim on being the "true" religion. If your answer boils down to "christianity is not literally true but serves as a useful allegory" then it doesn't seem to follow that it is necessarily the best religion - buddhism or some other religion seems to be able to provide just as satisfactory answers from that point of view.
My final thought, and it is the ultimate in scientific method: God needs no one to prove Him or His existence. I offer you the same challenge as anyone who asks about His reality. In total honesty, personally ask Him though Jesus Christ to show you if He exists. If he does not, you are simply talking to dead air. No harm there, right? But, if He does exist, He will show you. He loves and likes you and isn't afraid of your questions. He made you specifically, not by accident, and this is the time in history in which you were chosen to live.

All religions serve a dead person's ideas, like Buddism, or announce a philosophy of some kind. Christianity is the only one that has a living Savior, who wants a relationship with you, not just following of ideals. Being a Christian isn't about thoughts. It's about a living person.
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Unread 11-09-2008, 02:58 PM
 
344 posts, read 519,175 times
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Excellently worded, Highway29.
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Unread 11-09-2008, 04:01 PM
 
395 posts, read 611,703 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexianPatriot View Post
Jesus never lobbied the Roman government for social justice programs. Jesus was far from a pacifist.
Please cite text where Jesus told MEN to do anything but turn the other cheek, forgive, etc.

Please cite text where Jesus told men to work for a living and accumulate wealth (the basis of capitalism).

Don't get me wrong -I'm pro capitalist and not a pacifist. But Jesus clearly was not. No wonder socialists tend to be Christians.
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Unread 11-09-2008, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Dixie's Sunny Shore
1,313 posts, read 1,658,170 times
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Hey, txguy2009. I can appreciate how you began this thread, non-threatening and all, and trying to get honest feedback. That I can respect. I don't really know how intellectual you can label my reply, but here goes. In Ephesians 2:8 the Bible reads "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith..." To me this means if you can prove all that went on in the Bible, you would have no need for faith. Faith is the main ingredient for a relationship with God, IMO. If you could prove God's existance to everyone, everyone would believe and there would be no need for faith.

In the book of Matthew, chapter 18, it talks about having childlike faith to enter Heaven. I think that means don't try to study too much into proving God's there, just believe.
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Unread 11-09-2008, 08:04 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
1,137 posts, read 1,592,369 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soonerguy View Post
Excellently worded, Highway29.
Thank you! Just trying to help.
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Unread 11-09-2008, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Out of Florida........
4,217 posts, read 3,265,957 times
Reputation: 845
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNKY View Post
Hey, txguy2009. I can appreciate how you began this thread, non-threatening and all, and trying to get honest feedback. That I can respect. I don't really know how intellectual you can label my reply, but here goes. In Ephesians 2:8 the Bible reads "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith..." To me this means if you can prove all that went on in the Bible, you would have no need for faith. Faith is the main ingredient for a relationship with God, IMO. If you could prove God's existance to everyone, everyone would believe and there would be no need for faith.

In the book of Matthew, chapter 18, it talks about having childlike faith to enter Heaven. I think that means don't try to study too much into proving God's there, just believe.
Wonderfully said. I second that. God bless. Love, pure and simple. Don't try to figure it out. Just believe.
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Unread 11-09-2008, 08:28 PM
 
Location: England
1,169 posts, read 1,304,914 times
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Listen - you need to stop looking around at all the different religions - of course they all have a little bit of truth in them. Thats what makes them so dangerous! But they cannot all be right. They can all be wrong, but not all right.
If you believe the Bible is God inspired and truth - look to his word. Pray, don't ask US to tell you, ask GOD. He will answer you - if you seek him with all your heart.

As for all the questions "How did God do this, how did God do that?" Don't make God in YOUR image. My God is an awesome God, a big God, nothing is impossible for him - nothing is too hard, too difficult.
In God is truth and light - no darkness at all - LOOK to him. He will show you the way. "Faith is a Gift from God." He gives to those who sincerely and humbly ask. Look to him. Godbless.
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