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Ironmaw, I believe the Bible was messed with. A lot. There are honestly more verses that contradict the trinity than agree with it, and the trinity has caused more confusion around the globe than almost any other belief in Christianity (besides eternal torment). The trinity has always been a pagan belief, even before the start of Christianity. Pagans love their trinities. God is not the author of confusion, as the Bible says, and God made us logical curious beings for a reason.
I believe Jesus was the representative for his father. His father is obviously Spirit, and we cannot see him in the flesh, but Jesus was the perfect man who received God's spirit after his baptism, but until then>>>>>>>Matthew 3:16. As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
I don't care if I sound like a cult to anybody reading this post. I'm not interested in organized religion and I'm not interested in conforming to any set of beliefs. I just want the truth. That's what I've always wanted. I've been that way since I was little, and that passion for the truth has not gone away. Not in the slightest.
(Sorry if I'm causing you to bunch up your shoulders. I know you didn't really want to discuss this.)
I noticed that you did not answer my question ...
Quote:
When they asked Jesus to show them the father(God), why do you suppose that Jesus asked them in reply "don't you know me (who i am) ... ?" ?
(Sorry if I'm causing you to bunch up your shoulders. I know you didn't really want to discuss this.)
No worries friend, im not bunching up my shoulders nor am i frustrated ...
Not much else is happening on this forum right now, so perhaps God wants me to discuss this issue regardless of my own feelings on the matter.
I admit, maybe i am wrong about the way i believe concerning this subject ...
Are you willing to admit that you might be wrong about the way you believe concerning this subject also?
If we are not open to the fact that we might be wrong, then we have no room left to learn and grow ...
I am just dealing with the scriptures, and what they teach ... Even if you believe that the scriptures where tampered with, you must admit that the scriptures as we have them do teach that Jesus is God, even if you also believe that they teach that he is not God at the same time.
So then, it becomes a matter of faith, and not a matter of certainty ... And faith is a substance of things hoped for.
Personally i hope and therefore have faith and believe that Jesus is in fact God, because it seems to me from all that he did and said, if the scriptures be true at all concerning him, that he is the right "being" for the job ...
If I had an invisible dad, and this invisible dad was trying to get a group of people (Old Testament folks) to follow them, and only their prophets could hear him, but the group kept killing the prophets because they didn't want to listen to the truth, so I had to show up in physical form to physically show how my father worked, this would be something I would say: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?>>>>>>Because, duh, my dad is spirit and he wanted me to show you guys how he works, cause nobody believes my dad exists, apparently, or nobody believes he is love, cause you guys keep gypping the nations around you when I tell you I don't like you charging interest and you keep killing people and starting wars 'cause you think you are special, etc. etc.
(Okay, I added that last part.)
But there are a million and a half ways we could interpret these supposed trinity verses, and not one of the ways that tradition has interpreted them sound remotely true, to me. In fact, many verses declare Jesus is not God, only God's son. That's what the demons said, as well. Matthew 8:29. And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God?
It's a pagan belief, I tell you.
*And, remember, I truly believe the Bible was written with the trinity in mind, not the truth.
If I had an invisible dad, and this invisible dad was trying to get a group of people (Old Testament folks) to follow them, and only their prophets could hear him, but the group kept killing the prophets because they didn't want to listen to the truth, so I had to show up in physical form to physically show how my father worked, this would be something I would say: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?>>>>>>Because, duh, my dad is spirit and he wanted me to show you guys how he works, cause nobody believes my dad exists, apparently, or nobody believes he is love, cause you guys keep gypping the nations around you when I tell you I don't like you charging interest and you keep killing people and starting wars 'cause you think you are special, etc. etc.
(Okay, I added that last part.)
But there are a million and a half ways we could interpret these supposed trinity verses, and not one of the ways that tradition has interpreted them sound remotely true, to me. In fact, many verses declare Jesus is not God, only God's son. That's what the demons said, as well. Matthew 8:29. And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God?
It's a pagan belief, I tell you.
*And, remember, I truly believe the Bible was written with the trinity in mind, not the truth.
Okay ... Now will you also answer this question?
Quote:
Let me ask you a question and search your heart for the answer ... If you discovered for a fact, without needing to have faith, that Jesus is God, how would that make you feel?
No worries friend, im not bunching up my shoulders nor am i frustrated ...
Not much else is happening on this forum right now, so perhaps God wants me to discuss this issue regardless of my own feelings on the matter.
I admit, maybe i am wrong about the way i believe concerning this subject ...
Are you willing to admit that you might be wrong about the way you believe concerning this subject also?
If we are not open to the fact that we might be wrong, then we have no room left to learn and grow ...
I am just dealing with the scriptures, and what they teach ... Even if you believe that the scriptures where tampered with, you must admit that the scriptures as we have them do teach that Jesus is God, even if you also believe that they teach that he is not God at the same time.
So then, it becomes a matter of faith, and not a matter of certainty ... And faith is a substance of things hoped for.
Personally i hope and therefore have faith and believe that Jesus is in fact God, because it seems to me from all that he did and said, if the scriptures be true at all concerning him, that he is the right "being" for the job ...
Ironmaw, you know that I grew up Independent Baptist, so you know where I'm coming from. I thought everybody else had all the answers and I was always wrong, for 30 years! So, am I willing to admit I may be wrong???
Rofl, if you know what I mean.
And I, too, with all my heart believe that Jesus would be the right being for the job. I just don't believe that he's God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Okay ... Now will you also answer this question?
Let me ask you a question and search your heart for the answer ... If you discovered for a fact, without needing to have faith, that Jesus is God, how would that make you feel?
I have been searching and searching and searching. I'm so tired of searching I feel like throwing up. Without needing to have faith? I don't know what you mean. I think I kinda need to die to do that.
Ironmaw, you know that I grew up Independent Baptist, so you know where I'm coming from. I thought everybody else had all the answers and I was always wrong, for 30 years! So, am I willing to admit I may be wrong???
Rofl, if you know what I mean.
And I, too, with all my heart believe that Jesus would be the right being for the job. I just don't believe that he's God.
I have been searching and searching and searching. I'm so tired of searching I feel like throwing up. Without needing to have faith? I don't know what you mean. I think I kinda need to die to do that.
Okay, skip the part about not needing to have faith, i only mean if you found out for certain that Jesus is God ... How would that make you feel?
Okay, skip the part about not needing to have faith, i only mean if you found out for certain that Jesus is God ... How would that make you feel?
Lol. You sound like a psychiatrist. How would I feel if Jesus was God? Terribly confused. Like I am right now. I thought that's what the debate was about.......
John 1:1. In the beginning was the God and the God was with the God and the God was God.
Maybe it's time for bed. I seem to have ruffled a few feathers in my "Define Cult" thread, and I probably need another break from these boards. Oh, well. I'll be back. Truly sorry to any and all who are cranky with me right now. My apologies.
Why not? I do. It's fun and easy. Well, sort of easy. Let's just say it would be easier if there weren't so many contradictions between the so-called "writers" of the gospels. There's several hundred contradictions; a nightmare for any editor.
I mean seriously, they can't even agree on how many times Jesus went to Jerusalem. John says twice, everyone else says once, so which is it?
The trinity has always been a pagan belief, even before the start of Christianity.
I am not referring to the trinity, as i am not a traditional trinitarian. And i agree that the traditional Christian view of the trinity smacks of Paganism, that is why i have believed in Modalism for such a long time,even before i found out that Modalism was actually an ancient Christian doctrine that was finally deemed to be heresy by the Roman Catholic Church ...
But you have to remember that not only were the trinity and ET and annihilation and a literal hell pagan beliefs before they were Christian beliefs, so also was Universal Reconciliation.
And you believe in Universal reconciliation even though before Christianity some pagan beliefs taught UR ...
Just because Pagans believed and Taught a certain doctrine before Christianity came around, doesn't necessarily disqualify that doctrine as being true.
Even the apostle Paul agreed that the pagan doctrine declared by pagan poets and philosophers concerning the idea that all humans are the offspring of God, in whom we all live and breath and have our being, was true.
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