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Old 10-26-2010, 09:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
I do know that Jesus Christ is the son of God.
According to the bible, Jesus was not the first son of God.

Genesis 6:1-4
Quote:
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Clearly, the bible states that sons of God (older than Jesus) came down from heaven and mated with the daughers of man. These sons of God had children that became noble men/women. If Jesus was the only son of God, then who were these "sons of God" that the bible mentions in genesis? Could the bible have been validating all of the Pagan "sons of God" that came before Christ?
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Old 10-26-2010, 10:01 PM
 
Location: God's Country
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancharlotte View Post
According to the bible, Jesus was not the first son of God.

Genesis 6:1-4
Clearly, the bible states that sons of God (older than Jesus) came down from heaven and mated with the daughers of man. These sons of God had children that became noble men/women. If Jesus was the only son of God, then who were these "sons of God" that the bible mentions in genesis? Could the bible have been validating all of the Pagan "sons of God" that came before Christ?
Most scholars believe this phrase refers to the descendants of Seth who intermarried with Cain's evil descendants. The Bible clearly teaches Jesus is the ONLY Son of God.
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Old 10-26-2010, 10:26 PM
 
6,249 posts, read 9,682,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
Most scholars believe this phrase refers to the descendants of Seth who intermarried with Cain's evil descendants. The Bible clearly teaches Jesus is the ONLY Son of God.
If this were true, the bible would have stated "the sons of Seth". The bible says "sons of God". One doesn't need a "scholar" to figure this one out. My 7 year old son can clearly see that it reads "sons of God" (meaning that Jesus is not the only person in the bible with this title).

Obviously, one has to go outside of Christianity to learn more about these other "sons of God" that even the Christian bible mentions. That's my point. Trust me, if the "scholars" had their way, they would have left this verse out of the Christian bible. This is not the only controversial verse that slipped past the early Christian censors of the bible.
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Old 10-26-2010, 10:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I don't disagree with you often, Ironmaw, but in this case I do. I've read all I can on the trinity, and I've scoured Christian websites trying to figure this out, but they always come up way too short, in my opinion. I believe Jesus was a man who was sent to show us the love of his father, which he did, brilliantly! When people cried, "my lord and my God," it was because they saw their father in action. God is spirit, and when his spirit rested on Christ, perfectly, people were overjoyed, and I love him more and more everyday! If he really existed, and if there really is an afterlife, I can't wait to meet him.

But, the church was so steeped in paganism, within years of the disciples death, that I just don't believe the trinity to be a Christian doctrine. I believe God's spirit rested on Jesus (he did not have the Holy Spirit until after he was baptized. That should tell us something). I think the trinity slipped in just like the mythological underworlds and the mother/son worship. I believe, just like the hell/grave issue, that there are far too many verses that overpower the ones that lean toward a trinity. God is not the author of confusion, and the trinity is beyond confusing. I'm not one to put up a fight, usually, but this is something I'm passionate about, and I will continue to study and do research, though I'm fairly certain the trinity is just another pagan doctrine.

I don't agree with all that is said in the below links, but I thought I'd throw them out there for discussion.

(Wow! Do the pagans ever love their trinity! And I don't think the reformation did much reforming)

The Pagan Trinity, and Saint Brigit....Photo Twelve

Worshipping Jesus and theTrinitarian Argument

Roman mythology

Egyptian Trinity

PAGAN INFLUENCE UPON THE TRINITY

Nicene Creed and the Truth about the Trinity

Hindu Trinity~~~

We cant always agree on everything ...

I have noticed that most(not all) of the Christian Universalists on this forum do not believe in the deity of Christ, so you are obviously not alone, but neither am I ...

The Timelessness of God and the Deity of Christ (Concerning the deity of Christ from www.biblicaluniversalist.com)

Daniel 7 refers to Christ as the ancient of days, and in the same verse makes reference to the saints of the "most high", while at the same time we find in Isiah that Christ is said to be the most high God and the perpetual father. I know the argument that is given by others who believe as you do that this was only a prophecy that he would be called those things but he would not in reality be them, but if you believe that then why do you believe he is truly the prince of peace in reality and the wonderful counselor?

Also IN 1 John, we are told that in the beginning the word was with God, and the word was God, and that the word became flesh and dwelt among us, which alludes to the name Immanuel, which means God with us.

Concerning your argument that the apostle Thomas was merely making an exclamation, something akin to when people today say "Oh my God!", i find no evidence of this as being a common exclamation among Hebrew people or even Gentiles during the time of Christ, and it seems to be merely an argument drummed up in order to debunk the fact that Thomas believe Christ to be his God. But when we read the words of Thomas, he is specifically speaking directly to Jesus when he says it, and he is not saying it simply as an indirect exclamation. When Thomas Said, "my lord and my God", it was an answer to Christs command to stop doubting and believe, and not simply an exclamation of surprise or whatever ...


Jhn 20:27-28
then he saith to Thomas, `Bring thy finger hither, and see my hands, and bring thy hand, and put [it] to my side, and become not unbelieving, but believing.' And Thomas answered and said to him, `My Lord and my God;'


I am not interested in going through this debate again fully at this time, but i will say that i am not a classical trinitarian. I lean toward Modalism where these things are concerned(Sabellianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), and I believe the words of Christ make an argument for modalism, when he answered the apostles after they had asked him to show them the father ...


Jhn 14:9
esus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.


The last couple of Verses in the above passage brings to mind ...


Jhn 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.


I believe there is a very subtle allusion being made between these verses that most Christian are not aware of, but i will leave that up to the individuals to think upon for themselves.


Also, the main point of my posts above was that the Christian Belief that Christ was God dates back to the 1st century, while the apostles still lived and walked the earth, the evidence for which i have already provided in the above posts. Though you may disagree with the deity of Christ, you cannot deny that it was a Christian belief as early as the 1st century, and thus it could not have been an invention or a doctrinal interpolation of roman Catholicism in the 4th century.



Peace ...
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Old 10-26-2010, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,387,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
We cant always agree on everything ...

I have noticed that most(not all) of the Christian Universalists on this forum do not believe in the deity of Christ, so you are obviously not alone, but neither am I ...

The Timelessness of God and the Deity of Christ (Concerning the deity of Christ from www.biblicaluniversalist.com)

Daniel 7 refers to Christ as the ancient of days, and in the same verse makes reference to the saints of the "most high", while at the same time we find in Isiah that Christ is said to be the most high God and the perpetual father. I know the argument that is given by others who believe as you do that this was only a prophecy that he would be called those things but he would not in reality be them, but if you believe that then why do you believe he is truly the prince of peace in reality and the wonderful counselor?

Also IN 1 John, we are told that in the beginning the word was with God, and the word was God, and that the word became flesh and dwelt among us, which alludes to the name Immanuel, which means God with us.

Concerning your argument that the apostle Thomas was merely making an exclamation, something akin to when people today say "Oh my God!", i find no evidence of this as being a common exclamation among Hebrew people or even Gentiles during the time of Christ, and it seems to be merely an argument drummed up in order to debunk the fact that Thomas believe Christ to be his God. But when we read the words of Thomas, he is specifically speaking directly to Jesus when he says it, and he is not saying it simply as an indirect exclamation. When Thomas Said, "my lord and my God", it was an answer to Christs command to stop doubting and believe, and not simply an exclamation of surprise or whatever ...


Jhn 20:27-28
then he saith to Thomas, `Bring thy finger hither, and see my hands, and bring thy hand, and put [it] to my side, and become not unbelieving, but believing.' And Thomas answered and said to him, `My Lord and my God;'


I am not interested in going through this debate again fully at this time, but i will say that i am not a classical trinitarian. I lean toward Modalism where these things are concerned(Sabellianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), and the words of Christ, when he answer the apostles after they had asked him to show them the father, when he said ...


Jhn 14:9
esus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.


The last couple of Verses in the above passage brings to mind ...


Jhn 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.


I believe there is a very subtle allusion being made between these verses that most Christian are not aware of, but i will leave that up to the individuals to think upon for themselves.


Also, the main point of my posts above was that the Christian Belief that Christ was God dates back to the 1st century, while the apostles still lived and walked the earth, the evidence for which i have already provided in the above posts. Though you may disagree with the deity of Christ, you cannot deny that it was a Christian belief as early as the 1st century, and thus it could not have been an invention or a doctrinal interpolation of roman Catholicism in the 4th century.



Peace ...
I guess we will agree to disagree, as they say. Thanks for the explanation, though. I know this doctrine didn't get started with the Catholic church, as there were other trinities before this, but seeing as how the people who wrote the New Testament seem to be conflicted and contradict each other, I'll just have to keep studying.

(actually, the Old and New Testament have a lot of errors and contradictions, but that doesn't bother me so much. I'm just trying to figure out why Jesus was here and what he was trying to tell us~~~From what I can tell, he came to bring us out of darkness and into love, and he was angry a lot, but mostly at the religious, over reasons explained again and again throughout the end of the Old Testament )
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Old 10-27-2010, 12:03 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,294,852 times
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How hard is this...?

Isa 9:6-7 gives Christ the Title of the Godhead...The Son being the Mighty God....the Everlasting Father, The Prince Of Peace, and the Counsellor.....all these terms were given throughout the scriptures as Christ, God, Father and the Holy Spirit and Ghost. My goodness! There is no debate!!
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Old 10-27-2010, 12:19 AM
 
6,249 posts, read 9,682,225 times
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
How hard is this...?

Isa 9:6-7 gives Christ the Title of the Godhead...The Son being the Mighty God....the Everlasting Father, The Prince Of Peace, and the Counsellor.....all these terms were given throughout the scriptures as Christ, God, Father and the Holy Spirit and Ghost. My goodness! There is no debate!!
Being that 68% of the World's population are not Christians, I'd say you're right. There really isn't a debate.

FWIW, the "Jesus is the only way" type Christians only make up 5% of the World's population. Catholics are the vast majority of Christianity's 32%. These numbers might seem way off to an American. However, we must not forget that Christianity is nearly 75% of America (and we are a country of only 300 million compared to a World of nearly 7 billion).

Last edited by urbancharlotte; 10-27-2010 at 12:27 AM..
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Old 10-27-2010, 12:38 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,387,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
How hard is this...?

Isa 9:6-7 gives Christ the Title of the Godhead...The Son being the Mighty God....the Everlasting Father, The Prince Of Peace, and the Counsellor.....all these terms were given throughout the scriptures as Christ, God, Father and the Holy Spirit and Ghost. My goodness! There is no debate!!

Yes, there is. There are a lot more scriptures that would deny the trinity than there are agreeing with a trinity. This argument sounds to me like the argument that people use who stand firmly by the eternal torment doctrine. The only time they can bring up a 2 compartment scenario is with the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, which talks about 2 compartments after death, but there are 100s of other verses which contradict this, so we have to see what the parable is talking about, and we need to investigate further what this trinity thing is all about, too. That's what I'm doing. The Bible most certianly does contradict itself and it most certainly has a lot of errors. Anyone trying to put their head under the sand to hide from these errors only looks like a fool to the rest of people who are trying to figure this all out.

May the Holy Spirit guide us into truth, and not man.

Last edited by herefornow; 10-27-2010 at 01:01 AM..
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Old 10-27-2010, 12:45 AM
 
20,328 posts, read 15,696,619 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancharlotte View Post
If this were true, the bible would have stated "the sons of Seth". The bible says "sons of God". One doesn't need a "scholar" to figure this one out. My 7 year old son can clearly see that it reads "sons of God" (meaning that Jesus is not the only person in the bible with this title).

Obviously, one has to go outside of Christianity to learn more about these other "sons of God" that even the Christian bible mentions. That's my point. Trust me, if the "scholars" had their way, they would have left this verse out of the Christian bible. This is not the only controversial verse that slipped past the early Christian censors of the bible.
Jesus Christ is not a son of God. He is 'the Son of God'. It is a title of His deity and is language of accomodation within the plan of salvation for man, in which Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, agreed to become a man and submit Himself to the will of the First Person of the Trinity, the author of the plan.

The phrase 'sons of God' bene-ha-Elohim in the Hebrew in the Old Testament refers to angels.

Job 1:6 'Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

Job 2:1 'Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 38:7 'When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? This was before Lucifer rebelled against God.

Genesis 6:2 'that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.

Compare Genesis 6:2 with 1 Peter 3:19 'In which also He (Jesus Christ) went and made proclamation to the spirits (angels- the sons of God in Genesis 6:2) now in prison (Tartarus), 20] who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Compare with Jude 6 'And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has dept in eternal bonds of darkness (in Tartarus) for the judgment of the great day (when they will be thrown into the lake of fire). Compare with 2 Peter 2:4 'For if God did not spare the angels that sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5] and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly,'

In 1 Peter 3:19, Jesus, after He went to the cross, and perhaps after His resurrection, went into Tartarus to proclaim to the group of fallen angels imprisoned there and out of touch with what was going on in the angellic conflict, that He had prevailed and gone to the cross, strategically defeating Satan. They had chosen the losing side.

In the New Testament, church-age believers are called sons of God. John 1:12 'But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in his name.

Gal 3:26 'For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.' By adoption: Romans 8:15 '...but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, ''Abba! Father!''

Last edited by Mike555; 10-27-2010 at 12:58 AM..
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Old 10-27-2010, 01:03 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,387,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jesus Christ is not a son of God. He is 'the Son of God'. It is a title of His deity and is language of accomodation within the plan of salvation for man, in which Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, agreed to become a man and submit Himself to the will of the First Person of the Trinity, the author of the plan.

The phrase 'sons of God' bene-ha-Elohim in the Hebrew in the Old Testament refers to angels.

Job 1:6 'Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

Job 2:1 'Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 38:7 'When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? This was before Lucifer rebelled against God.

Genesis 6:2 'that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.

Compare Genesis 6:2 with 1 Peter 3:19 'In which also He (Jesus Christ) went and made proclamation to the spirits (angels- the sons of God in Genesis 6:2) now in prison (Tartarus), 20] who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Compare with Jude 6 'And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has dept in eternal bonds of darkness (in Tartarus) for the judgment of the great day (when they will be thrown into the lake of fire). Compare with 2 Peter 2:4 'For if God did not spare the angels that sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5] and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly,'

In 1 Peter 3:19, Jesus, after He went to the cross, and perhaps after His resurrection, went into Tartarus to proclaim to the group of fallen angels imprisoned there and out of touch with what was going on in the angellic conflict, that He had prevailed and gone to the cross, strategically defeating Satan. They had chosen the losing side.

In the New Testament, church-age believers are called sons of God. John 1:12 'But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in his name.

Gal 3:26 'For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.' By adoption: Romans 8:15 '...but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, ''Abba! Father!''

Mike, quit giving the darkness so much power.
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