U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-01-2010, 01:32 PM
 
Location: West Coast USA
1,577 posts, read 1,782,007 times
Reputation: 3134

Advertisements

JazzyMom! I SO agree with much of what you write. As a believer that Yeshua is the Messiah, I Am Not Jewish! I am a Gentile believer in Him as the Messiah. And I understand that Christianity, as it is commonly taught, is not a sect of Judaism.

If it were a sect of Judaism, some of the things that would be different are that Christians would:
  • not practice Christmas and/or Easter
  • gather for public service on Sabbath
  • practice the feasts, festivals, and fasts
  • actually read, study, and practice the Torah
  • understand that the reason all of the Law is not practiced is because we are not in Israel, and there is no Temple

Common Christianity quit being a sect of Judaism when they pulled away from Judaism in order to avoid Roman taxation of Jews. Furthermore, they said nothing when Jews were murdered, their children stolen and baptized into the church, they were forced to say that Yeshua was the Messiah under threat of death, the Crusades went into Jerusalem, pillaging, raping, murdering, and committing all kinds of attrocities in the Holy City.

Common Christianity further pulled away when it later threatened Jews with being thrown into their synagogues, with their books and burned, and burned.

This is not pretty, it doesn't make friends, but it is historical truth. No, Christianity, as commonly taught, is not Jewish, and its members are certainly not Jewish.

But Jazzymom, I must disagree with you regarding Paul. The church teaches that Paul did away with the Torah, but he didn't. That is church tradition. The fact is that Paul came before the elders, and they told him that it was being told around that he was teaching people to ignore the law, not following it. He denied it. The elders said that if this was not so, he should take the time to publically prove this to the people. He agreed. He took a Nazirite vow, then joined with some young people, paying for their sacrifices and his own. However, when he went to the Temple to complete the vow with the young people, he was captured and taken away.

Paul wrote, (but it was before 70 c.e.) in Romans 11,
Quote:
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the root of the fatness rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-01-2010, 02:45 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,298,509 times
Reputation: 806
[quote=VelcroQueen;15289789]JazzyMom! I SO agree with much of what you write. As a believer that Yeshua is the Messiah, I Am Not Jewish! I am a Gentile believer in Him as the Messiah. And I understand that Christianity, as it is commonly taught, is not a sect of Judaism.

If it were a sect of Judaism, some of the things that would be different are that Christians would:
  • not practice Christmas and/or Easter
  • gather for public service on Sabbath
  • practice the feasts, festivals, and fasts
  • actually read, study, and practice the Torah
  • understand that the reason all of the Law is not practiced is because we are not in Israel, and there is no Temple

Common Christianity quit being a sect of Judaism when they pulled away from Judaism in order to avoid Roman taxation of Jews. Furthermore, they said nothing when Jews were murdered, their children stolen and baptized into the church, they were forced to say that Yeshua was the Messiah under threat of death, the Crusades went into Jerusalem, pillaging, raping, murdering, and committing all kinds of attrocities in the Holy City.

Common Christianity further pulled away when it later threatened Jews with being thrown into their synagogues, with their books and burned, and burned.

This is not pretty, it doesn't make friends, but it is historical truth. No, Christianity, as commonly taught, is not Jewish, and its members are certainly not Jewish.

But Jazzymom, I must disagree with you regarding Paul. The church teaches that Paul did away with the Torah, but he didn't. That is church tradition. The fact is that Paul came before the elders, and they told him that it was being told around that he was teaching people to ignore the law, not following it. He denied it. The elders said that if this was not so, he should take the time to publically prove this to the people. He agreed. He took a Nazirite vow, then joined with some young people, paying for their sacrifices and his own. However, when he went to the Temple to complete the vow with the young people, he was captured and taken away.

I did some searching for information because my understanding is that it wasn't to do away with the Torah which is the first 5 books of the Hebrew Bible but to do away with the need for circumcision for converts. There were some others parts of the mosaic law that were retained and some not. I would be interested in some sources that you found your information from.

Wapedia - Wiki: Council of Jerusalem
>>The Council of Jerusalem (or Apostolic Conference) is a name applied by historians to an Early Christian council that was held in Jerusalem and dated to around the year 50. The council decided that Gentile converts to Christianity were not obligated to keep most of the Mosaic law, including the rules concerning circumcision of males, however, the Council did retain the prohibitions against eating blood, or eating meat containing blood, or meat of animals not properly slain, and against fornication and idolatry. Descriptions of the council are found in Acts of the Apostles chapter 15 (in two different forms, the Alexandrian and Western versions) and also possibly in Paul's letter to the Galatians chapter 2 [1] . Some scholars dispute that Galatians 2 is about the Council of Jerusalem (notably because Galatians 2 describes a private meeting) while other scholars dispute the historical reliability of the Acts of the Apostles. Paul was likely an eyewitness, a major person in attendance, whereas Luke, the writer of Luke-Acts, who was a later follower of Paul, may not have been in attendance, and thus may have written second-hand, about the meeting he described in Acts 15.<<

Paul wrote, (but it was before 70 c.e.) in Romans 11,
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-01-2010, 05:13 PM
 
Location: West Coast USA
1,577 posts, read 1,782,007 times
Reputation: 3134
Quote:
Originally Posted by VelcroQueen
But Jazzymom, I must disagree with you regarding Paul. The church teaches that Paul did away with the Torah, but he didn't. That is church tradition. The fact is that Paul came before the elders, and they told him that it was being told around that he was teaching people to ignore the law, not following it. He denied it. The elders said that if this was not so, he should take the time to publically prove this to the people. He agreed. He took a Nazirite vow, then joined with some young people, paying for their sacrifices and his own. However, when he went to the Temple to complete the vow with the young people, he was captured and taken away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
I did some searching for information because my understanding is that it wasn't to do away with the Torah which is the first 5 books of the Hebrew Bible but to do away with the need for circumcision for converts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
There were some others parts of the mosaic law that were retained and some not. I would be interested in some sources that you found your information from.
Oh, what I wrote was just out of the Bible.

That was part of the problem, but they weren't saying to do away with circumcision in Acts 15. What had happened there was that some of the Jews who had believed in Yeshua from much earlier began to say that unless they were circumcised, the new believers could not possibly be considered true believers, thinking that circumcision must preceed true believing. Peter's initial response, because Jews are to be a light to the world and had, indeed, been the protectors of the Bible, James' response was this:
Quote:
“Brethren, you know that from days of old in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 “And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 “Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 “But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”
Then, after the council, James gave the final answer:
Quote:
“Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15“With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 After these things I will return,
And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen,
And I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will restore it,
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’
18 Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.
19 “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
Why was this teaching so limited from the normal teaching? What many ignore is the next verse.

Quote:
21 “For [or Because] Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
In other words, "they will learn the rest as we teach it to them." One cannot expect a new believer, especially one reared in pagan cultures, to know it all, "but they will learn as they continue coming to synagogue every Sabbath."

The evidence I gave (which was just one of many) that Paul did not discard Torah was this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by VelcroQueen
But Jazzymom, I must disagree with you regarding Paul. The church teaches that Paul did away with the Torah, but he didn't. That is church tradition. The fact is that Paul came before the elders, and they told him that it was being told around that he was teaching people to ignore the law, not following it. He denied it. The elders said that if this was not so, he should take the time to publically prove this to the people. He agreed. He took a Nazirite vow, then joined with some young people, paying for their sacrifices and his own. However, when he went to the Temple to complete the vow with the young people, he was captured and taken away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
I did some searching for information because my understanding is that it wasn't to do away with the Torah which is the first 5 books of the Hebrew Bible but to do away with the need for circumcision for converts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
There were some others parts of the mosaic law that were retained and some not. I would be interested in some sources that you found your information from.
Oh, what I wrote was just out of the Bible.

That was part of the problem, but they weren't saying to do away with circumcision in Acts 15. What had happened there was that some of the Jews who had believed in Yeshua from much earlier began to say that unless they were circumcised, the new believers could not possibly be considered true believers, thinking that circumcision must preceed true believing. Peter's initial response, because Jews are to be a light to the world and had, indeed, been the protectors of the Bible, James' response was this:
Quote:
“Brethren, you know that from days of old in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 “And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 “Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 “But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”
Then, after the council, James gave the final answer:
Quote:
“Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15“With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 After these things I will return,
And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen,
And I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will restore it,
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’
18 Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.
19 “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
Why was this teaching so limited from the normal teaching? What many ignore is the next verse.

Quote:
21 “For [or Because] Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
In other words, "they will learn the rest as we teach it to them." One cannot expect a new believer, especially one reared in pagan cultures, to know it all, "but they will learn as they continue coming to synagogue every Sabbath."

The evidence I gave (which was just one of many) that Paul did not discard Torah was this:

Quote:
17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to observe or live by walk according to the customs. 22 “What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 “Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who have a vow on them (Num 6:13-21; Acts 18:18) are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 “But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from [X]Lit the thing meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, (Num 6:13) went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top