Come unto me (Buddhism, believing, evolution, prayers)

[Ilene Wright]

Originally Posted by little elmer

After being a member of a church for many years, I left after I was given the choice to conform or leave.

Getting the cold shoulder from other people will never equate to being rejected by God.

Amen, Elmer!! We HAVE to learn to seperate the two. Other people can ruin our relationship with our Father if we let them, which is just what the devil wants.

Great posts, everyone!!

[aquila]

Excuse me for a moment, Alpha....



ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

I feel like I'm speaking Greek.



Okay, sorry. Had to get that out of my system.

I don't feel like you are understanding the point I'm trying to make, so I'll word it like this:

I'm driving down the road. I see a sign in front of a Church that says "Come as you are, you'll be loved".

I go inside the church. I tell them I'm gay. They decide to treat me like a leper. So I leave the church. Why? Because their sign was a lie. They didn't love me. I went in as I was, but they rejected me.

I continue driving down the road and see another church sign that reads "God accepts you as you are".

I go inside that church. I tell them I'm gay. They tell me "You're a wicked, vile sinner. You must change who you are before you can go to Heaven."

Did God accept me as I was?

Now......what I was asking is this: WHY do you guys go around spouting out these cutesy half-truths that mislead people and give them false hope? Why do your church signs read "God accepts you just as you are" when you know full-well that it also demands they change? Is it just to get people in the door??? Why not put the WHOLE truth on the church sign?

With respect to cg81's OP...(and mind you, it was not my intention to hijack this thread)...I just wanted to point out that such cutesy interpretations should not be connected to Matthew 11, or appended with "~Jesus" at the end as though they are authoritative.

Moving on....forgive my righteous indignation, but the following part of your post honked me off.

Originally Posted by Alpha8207

Here's the first one that came to mind, but there are others I will find if you REALLY want to know what the Bible says and you just don't want someone to tell you what you want to hear:

That was a cheap shot. And a bit presumptuous that you would think I would only be interested in someone telling me what I want to hear. Do you think that low of me? Do you question my character that much, Alpha? I don't ignore those kinds of remarks, whether they come from a friend, a pastor, or a message board moderator. So please note that it's those kinds of comments that come off as intimidating to people and can drive them away from Christians.

Originally Posted by Alpha8207

aquila, read back through this thread. We are all in one accord here. You are the one that can not agree. The rest of us are unified here.

I'm not talking about this thread, Alpha. I'm talking about the whole of Christendom. If Christians were united, there wouldn't be the umpteen thousands of different churches and individual interpretations that are mainly based upon some aspect of another human's interpretation that came before them. But that's not really part of the subject of this thread, and I should have just shut my mouth in my previous posts.

Originally Posted by Alpha8207

I don't think you are a waste of flesh. That's so nasty.

No, I think I am. I know it to be a true fact.

[aquila]

Originally Posted by World Citizen

Dear sweet, aquila,

I sincerely apologize to you if you misunderstood my purpose. My desire was not to in any way judge or harm you.

I understand more about what you've been through than you might want to believe.

I've witnessed a church reject someone who was sincere on more than one occasion. I was there with them. I've seen it happen. At least one of them will probably never go back to church again. I can't blame her. Another time, I brought a young man to church who went forward for prayer. I watched in horror and disbelief when the pastor literally skipped over him.... refusing to pray for him. Then, there was the time that same pastor chose to preach a whole sermon about a person's particular sin -- staring right at him -- on his first visit to church. He was sitting right next to me on the back pew of the church.

I wish I could say these were the only times that similar things happened in churches - to people that I was with.
I can tell you that I left all of those churches after these experiences. I did not want to be a part of their congregations.

The fact that these things happened doesn't mean that God rejected any of these people....

Those congregations WILL BE judged for their behavior. You can be very sure of that.

"And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." Matthew 18:5-6

I would never send you to anyone that would make you feel bad about yourself. I actually own a video set by Mr. Foster that involves hours of teaching.
From what I've seen, his heart is very kind. Unfortunately, you may find it hard to receive from him because of his past life. Isn't it interesting how we people do that?

I'm sure these other people will address your question about the scriptural basis for cg's statements. I think I addressed it when I pointed out how Jesus picked Matthew, Mark, Luke and John... as well as the other disciples. You can look at the way Jesus dealt with the woman caught in adultery, who the pharisees wanted to stone....
The whole New Testament is full of examples.

God bless you,

WC

Okay, you should probably know that when I read your post, it came off as sounding very supportive of me. I thought you were telling me you accept me just as I am, and that you don't think I should have to change. But then you tell me about a man and his website that gave me the opposite impression. So I felt like you were duping me....in much the same way as those misleading church signs that butter people up, telling them how much they are loved and that God accepts them as they are....until they get inside and hear a different message.

So that's why I got defensive.

[bchris02]

Originally Posted by aquila

I continue driving down the road and see another church sign that reads "God accepts you as you are".

I go inside that church. I tell them I'm gay. They tell me "You're a wicked, vile sinner. You must change who you are before you can go to Heaven."

Did God accept me as I was?

Now......what I was asking is this: WHY do you guys go around spouting out these cutesy half-truths that mislead people and give them false hope? Why do your church signs read "God accepts you just as you are" when you know full-well that it also demands they change? Is it just to get people in the door??? Why not put the WHOLE truth on the church sign?

That was wrong on the part of the churches to treat you that way...unfortunately that is how most churches other than UCC or MCC will treat a gay person in their congregation. Christians will never win homosexuals to the Lord with that attitude.

That said, there is a difference between welcoming and affirming what the Bible clearly teaches as sin. Ideally, the church should show you the love of Christ as that is what He has instructed us to do, but they should also direct and help you toward the right path. As a Bible-believing Christian, I cannot in good conscious tell you that homosexuality is not a sin and that your relationship with your boyfriend is holy before God, because the Bible says contrary. I will say that God will accept you as you are and He will change your life, if you genuinely repent of your sins and accept Him as your Saviour.

You must be willing to deny yourself though as Christ instructed. That is the most difficult part about being a Christian.

[esselcue]

Aquila...I said once before in another thread, Christianity is not the only way to spiritual fulfillment. You do not need to change who you are or how you live your life (unless you are harming others, which I seriously doubt), or read more of the Bible or deny the person you are, or any other of the well-meaning suggestions given you on this board/thread. What you need to do is to find a way to love yourself for who you are, stop listening to those who tell you to "change" (I do not believe homosexual people are that way by choice) and then investigate other spiritual paths. There are a lot of loving, fulfilling paths to peace in this world...don't limit yourself to the Christian religion if it is causing you this much pain. It did not work for me either (straight woman), never helped with my burdens, never solved my pain or problems. Many of us feel the same...

[aquila]

Originally Posted by cg81

How are we supposed to come to Jesus? As we aren't? As somebody else? As someone who is pretending to be what they are not?

Don't confuse the phrase "come as you are" with "accept you as your are". You quoted a part of my post in which I specifically referenced acceptance, but responded with all kinds of words about coming as you are. There's a difference. ACCEPTING someone as they are means just that....you accept them as they are without demanding something to change in exchange for your acceptance. If I have to stop being a gay man in order to be acceptable to God....and you will agree that is true....then that means I'm not accepted as I am. To me, it's simple. I don't know how else to explain it.

Originally Posted by cg81

We like to hold on to some things... we all do. We don't want to give everything to Him. We don't have faith that He can do anything about it... or that He is even interested.

So are you presuming I don't have faith that He can do anything about it?

Originally Posted by cg81

"Coming as we are" also means that we are open to Jesus. Jesus is all about change. We sometimes seem to think that we need to change before we come to Jesus.. but this will not work. We need to "come as we are" and Jesus will change us.....

........We all need change, and if we are not interested in that, Jesus really cannot help us.

Alright....case in point: Why hasn't that happened? If I tell you that after years of struggling, I'm still gay - are you going to tell me I haven't had any faith? Are you going to presume I haven't told Him I want to change? I've cried tears and begged to go blind or get cancer in exchange for homosexuality. That's how much I've cried out to God in the past about my desire to be straight...for Him to make me into what He wanted me to be. Was that not strong enough desire? (I don't know why I'm bothering to say these things to you.....or why I'm asking you these questions. You'll just glide over them.)

[little elmer]

Originally Posted by aquila

If I have to stop being a gay man in order to be acceptable to God....and you will agree that is true....then that means I'm not accepted as I am.

I may be in the minority here, but it's my opinion that it's God that changes you - not you. See Him as love instead of a set of tablets, and you're on your way.

[bchris02]

Originally Posted by aquila

I tell you that after years of struggling, I'm still gay - are you going to tell me I haven't had any faith? Are you going to presume I haven't told Him I want to change? I've cried tears and begged to go blind or get cancer in exchange for homosexuality. That's how much I've cried out to God in the past about my desire to be straight...for Him to make me into what He wanted me to be. Was that not strong enough desire? (I don't know why I'm bothering to say these things to you.....or why I'm asking you these questions. You'll just glide over them.)

Sometimes we don't understand why God allows certain things, but He has promised us He will never allow us to be tempted more than we have the ability to overcome.

[MTbound]

I have to fully agree with esselcue. You can live a spiritual life without practicing Christianity. If you just can't walk away from Christianity there are churches where you can be authentic in who you are and remain part of the congregation. Seek out those who would embrace you.

[little elmer]

Originally Posted by MTbound

I have to fully agree with esselcue. You can live a spiritual life without practicing Christianity. If you just can't walk away from Christianity there are churches where you can be authentic in who you are and remain part of the congregation. Seek out those who would embrace you.

I understand what you're saying, but know that a lot of that acceptance comes from lower standards. It's a holy God that loves me as I am - paradoxical though it may seem.