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Old 11-21-2008, 06:44 AM
 
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Whenever Jesus used the expression "this generation," He was referring to His contemporaries. No question concerning His meaning has ever arisen over the noneschatological passages in which this expression is found, but much disagreement has surfaced concerning its use in Matthew 24:24 (cf. Mark 13 and Luke 21).

If Jesus always meant His generation when He used the expression "this generation," what is the justification for giving His words a different meaning in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21? I submit that the meaning was changed not for clarity and not out of sound exegesis but out of a necessity to fit Jesus' words to an eschatological system!

1. Matt. 11:16 (Luke 7:31) - "But to what shall I compare this generation?"

2. Matt. 12:39 - "But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craved for a sign; and yet no sign shall be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet."

3. Matt. 12:41, 42 - "The men of Nineveh shall stand up with this generation at the judgment, and shall condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something is greater than Jonah is here. The Queen of the South shall rise up with this generation at the judgment and shall condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here."

4. Matt. 12:43-45 - "That is the way it will also be with this evil generation."

5. Matt. 16:4 - "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah." And He left them, and went away."


6. Matt. 17:17 (Mark 9:19 & Luke 9:41) - "And Jesus answered and said, "O unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him here to Me."

7. Matt. 23:36 - "Truly I say to you, all these things shall be upon this generation."

8. Matt 24:34 (Mark 13:30) - Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

9. Luke 11:29-32 - The same as in Matt. 12:41, 42. "this generation"

10. Luke 11:50, 51 (Matt. 23:36) - "In order that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation."

Preterist
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Old 11-21-2008, 07:13 AM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 5,958,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Whenever Jesus used the expression "this generation," He was referring to His contemporaries. No question concerning His meaning has ever arisen over the noneschatological passages in which this expression is found, but much disagreement has surfaced concerning its use in Matthew 24:24 (cf. Mark 13 and Luke 21).

If Jesus always meant His generation when He used the expression "this generation," what is the justification for giving His words a different meaning in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21? I submit that the meaning was changed not for clarity and not out of sound exegesis but out of a necessity to fit Jesus' words to an eschatological system!

1. Matt. 11:16 (Luke 7:31) - "But to what shall I compare this generation?"

2. Matt. 12:39 - "But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craved for a sign; and yet no sign shall be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet."

3. Matt. 12:41, 42 - "The men of Nineveh shall stand up with this generation at the judgment, and shall condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something is greater than Jonah is here. The Queen of the South shall rise up with this generation at the judgment and shall condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here."

4. Matt. 12:43-45 - "That is the way it will also be with this evil generation."

5. Matt. 16:4 - "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah." And He left them, and went away."


6. Matt. 17:17 (Mark 9:19 & Luke 9:41) - "And Jesus answered and said, "O unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him here to Me."

7. Matt. 23:36 - "Truly I say to you, all these things shall be upon this generation."

8. Matt 24:34 (Mark 13:30) - Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

9. Luke 11:29-32 - The same as in Matt. 12:41, 42. "this generation"

10. Luke 11:50, 51 (Matt. 23:36) - "In order that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation."

Preterist

Preterist,

Although we may not agree on some issues, I do very much respect your inquisitive mind.
Although I too search for God's message in the text, I do rely on those more gifted than myself who search the scripture, study history, languages, and ancient cultures in search for the meaning.
I don't have that inclination, but it appears that you do, and I'm grateful for that.
Keep searching.
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Old 11-21-2008, 09:23 AM
 
17,749 posts, read 15,023,452 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Whenever Jesus used the expression "this generation," He was referring to His contemporaries. No question concerning His meaning has ever arisen over the noneschatological passages in which this expression is found, but much disagreement has surfaced concerning its use in Matthew 24:24 (cf. Mark 13 and Luke 21).

If Jesus always meant His generation when He used the expression "this generation," what is the justification for giving His words a different meaning in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21? I submit that the meaning was changed not for clarity and not out of sound exegesis but out of a necessity to fit Jesus' words to an eschatological system!

1. Matt. 11:16 (Luke 7:31) - "But to what shall I compare this generation?"

2. Matt. 12:39 - "But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craved for a sign; and yet no sign shall be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet."

3. Matt. 12:41, 42 - "The men of Nineveh shall stand up with this generation at the judgment, and shall condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something is greater than Jonah is here. The Queen of the South shall rise up with this generation at the judgment and shall condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here."

4. Matt. 12:43-45 - "That is the way it will also be with this evil generation."

5. Matt. 16:4 - "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah." And He left them, and went away."


6. Matt. 17:17 (Mark 9:19 & Luke 9:41) - "And Jesus answered and said, "O unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him here to Me."

7. Matt. 23:36 - "Truly I say to you, all these things shall be upon this generation."

8. Matt 24:34 (Mark 13:30) - Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

9. Luke 11:29-32 - The same as in Matt. 12:41, 42. "this generation"

10. Luke 11:50, 51 (Matt. 23:36) - "In order that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation."

Preterist
Hi Preterist,

I am just a fan.
I also notice contextually not considering that generation as his contemporaries lead to all sorts of nonsense. Jesus stated the case against them because they rejected him and his works seen by them openly. Jesus said that if Sidon and Tyre had seen his mighty works they would have repented. Why would God lower the boom on a generation today that had not seen one greater than Solomon, had not seen his works or turn him over to the Romans to perish?
Textually, logically and contextually the scripture all points to Jesus and his contemporaries.


Jesus was not alone. Why would John say to them about a wrath 2000 years later. The Mediterranean diet may be healthy but not that healthy.

Matthew 3
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
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Old 11-21-2008, 10:50 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,371,299 times
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So as a full Preterist, how do you see the spiritual side of things, or does stuff just happen as they go?

See, I am a partial preterist. I believe the OT shadow(physical Israel) ended with the death of Jesus. But I see this only as the shadow of things to come. He was talking to THAT generation, but I see this as also applying to EVERY generation, in the Spiritual realm. There is nothing left out. From Adam, to us dying to self, it is ALL there.

So again i ask, how can someone be a full preterist when it clearly shows in scripture that this isn't the case?
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Old 11-21-2008, 10:57 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,034,667 times
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Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
So as a full Preterist, how do you see the spiritual side of things, or does stuff just happen as they go?

See, I am a partial preterist. I believe the OT shadow(physical Israel) ended with the death of Jesus. But I see this only as the shadow of things to come. He was talking to THAT generation, but I see this as also applying to EVERY generation, in the Spiritual realm. There is nothing left out. From Adam, to us dying to self, it is ALL there.

So again i ask, how can someone be a full preterist when it clearly shows in scripture that this isn't the case?
Hi HotinAz: Could you be a little more specific? What Scriptures show that "this isn't the case?" Thanks.

If He was talking to THAT generation as you admit, how many generations were going to see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet? (Mat. 24:15). How many times was Jerusalem to be surrounded by armies (Luke 21). How many times were people to look up because their salvation drew near? (Luke 21).

Who are the initial recipients of these words spoken by Jesus? Was He not speaking directly to those disciples right there with Him about things that were soon to happen personally to them? Along with Jesus' expression "this generation," there are also the many time indicators that clearly demonstrate that the things of which Jesus spoke were to happen soon--in the "this generation." Scripture, as far as I can ascertain, does not teach dual, triple, quadruple, etc. fulfillments of these things.

Preterist
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Old 11-21-2008, 11:06 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,034,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Hi Preterist,

I am just a fan.
I also notice contextually not considering that generation as his contemporaries lead to all sorts of nonsense. Jesus stated the case against them because they rejected him and his works seen by them openly. Jesus said that if Sidon and Tyre had seen his mighty works they would have repented. Why would God lower the boom on a generation today that had not seen one greater than Solomon, had not seen his works or turn him over to the Romans to perish?
Textually, logically and contextually the scripture all points to Jesus and his contemporaries.


Jesus was not alone. Why would John say to them about a wrath 2000 years later. The Mediterranean diet may be healthy but not that healthy.

Matthew 3
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Thanks for the support and for the helpful comments, gwynedd1. I enjoy your insights.

Preterist
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Old 11-21-2008, 12:30 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,371,299 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Hi HotinAz: Could you be a little more specific? What Scriptures show that "this isn't the case?" Thanks.
Col 2:16
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-things which are a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
If He was talking to THAT generation as you admit, how many generations were going to see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet? (Mat. 24:15).
If you are talking about a "earthly-copy" physical temple, then that one only. If we are talking about the temple of God, namely your body, then the abomination of desolation could happen when a Christian "falls", or sins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
How many times was Jerusalem to be surrounded by armies (Luke 21).
Again, if we are talking about physical Israel, then that was it. But if we are talking about the Spiritual Israel, then it happens daily!

2Cr 10:3
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.


Eph 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual wickedness in the heavenly {places.}


So you see, we are "surrounded" all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
How many times were people to look up because their salvation drew near? (Luke 21).
Act 7:55
But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."


He saw his Salvation drawing near.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Who are the initial recipients of these words spoken by Jesus?
Physical Israel!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Was He not speaking directly to those disciples right there with Him about things that were soon to happen personally to them?
In some cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Along with Jesus' expression "this generation," there are also the many time indicators that clearly demonstrate that the things of which Jesus spoke were to happen soon--in the "this generation." Scripture, as far as I can ascertain, does not teach dual, triple, quadruple, etc. fulfillments of these things.

Preterist
Then again. How does ALL this end?
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:05 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,034,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Col 2:16
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-things which are a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.




If you are talking about a "earthly-copy" physical temple, then that one only. If we are talking about the temple of God, namely your body, then the abomination of desolation could happen when a Christian "falls", or sins.



Again, if we are talking about physical Israel, then that was it. But if we are talking about the Spiritual Israel, then it happens daily!

2Cr 10:3
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.


Eph 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual wickedness in the heavenly {places.}


So you see, we are "surrounded" all the time.



Act 7:55
But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."


He saw his Salvation drawing near.



Physical Israel!



In some cases.



Then again. How does ALL this end?
Sorry, HotinAz, but you really proved nothing. In Colossians 2:17 is a Greek word that the translators numerous times took it upon themselves to NOT translate. But it is extremely significant. The word is mellonton. It is the present active participle form of the word mello. It literally means "the about to come things." In other words, the things of which Paul wrote were a shadow of the things that were about to come in His day.

There are many things in the NT that are to be understood as one-time, point-in-time events. There is no scriptural justification for dual fulfillment and spiritualizations of those things which were accomplished once and for all in the past!

Preterist
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Old 11-21-2008, 03:09 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,371,299 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Sorry, HotinAz, but you really proved nothing. In Colossians 2:17 is a Greek word that the translators numerous times took it upon themselves to NOT translate. But it is extremely significant. The word is mellonton. It is the present active participle form of the word mello. It literally means "the about to come things." In other words, the things of which Paul wrote were a shadow of the things that were about to come in His day.

There are many things in the NT that are to be understood as one-time, point-in-time events. There is no scriptural justification for dual fulfillment and spiritualizations of those things which were accomplished once and for all in the past!

Preterist
μελλόντων or mellonton

Funny, I looked up that word, and it means future. In other words, the things of which Paul wrote were a shadow of the things of the future, but was the temple destroyed yet? No. So, of course it would mean the future, as the temple still stood in the physical world on the temple mount.


The dramatic claims by Jesus talking about destroying the temple and raising it in three days, applied to the SPIRITUAL side. The actual temple wasn't destroyed and built back up in three days. It still isn't there.
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Old 11-21-2008, 04:27 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,034,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
μελλόντων or mellonton

Funny, I looked up that word, and it means future. In other words, the things of which Paul wrote were a shadow of the things of the future, but was the temple destroyed yet? No. So, of course it would mean the future, as the temple still stood in the physical world on the temple mount.


The dramatic claims by Jesus talking about destroying the temple and raising it in three days, applied to the SPIRITUAL side. The actual temple wasn't destroyed and built back up in three days. It still isn't there.
That is funny, HotinAZ, becasue it does NOT mean future. Mellonton is the PRESENT active participle. It means the "about to come" things. When something is about to happen, it means soon. Paul was speaking of soon to come things. Where did you look up the word? The only future aspect of that term is that it was to happen in the very near future--about to, soon!

Preterist
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