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On a more present-day theological level (I'll never be as well read as most of you!), I've always had some problems with fundementalists' beliefs about Satan.
For starters, since he is a created being and certainly was privy to the power of the Almighty and had to have known how powerful God is, why in the world did he even try to rebel?
Second, I've been told that many of the trials my family and I have been through over the past few years has been God "lowering the hedge" around us to let evil attacks happen to us because it's one of God's tools to refine us, kind of like Job. If that's so, why is Satan cooperating? I can almost see this Dick Dastardly-like (a 70s cartoon villain) character saying, "Curses! Foiled again!" everytime we're made stronger because of his attacks. You'd think that he'd learn by now.
I've always assumed because of what I've been taught that Satan is real, but some things just make no sense when you really think about them.
And you have pointed out just a few of the theological problems with this whole story - as told by many Christians, that is.
Is it logical to pray to a god who claims to be all loving and caring, and yet is the harbinger who brings about earthquakes that kill thousands, leads little girls to be molested by her uncles, sends children to early graves, and leaves most of humanity in a state of pain, sorrow, and despair?
Is it logical to pray to a God who at the very least allows these things to happen... a god who could protect these innocent little girls but chooses to let them be molested? This is where those who think they are protecting God(as if he needs protection or defending from the likes of puny man) get stuck between a rock and hard place. The thought being, God is innocent of anything that we as mere humans consider to be bad or evil. It`s all man`s fault. Man brings it on himself and God has nothing to do with it. We think of God in human terms and put human attributes on him. God is not man. God can and does what he so desires. What he does is not evil. What he does is not sinful. God uses the hand of satan to bring about suffering on man. Satan cannot do anything of his own. He acts under authority of God Almighty. Satan can do nothing without God, at the very least, allowing it. At most authorizing it. I`m using the pronoun he for satan to help illustrate,not that I think satan is a he!
God is the beginning and end of EVERYTHING. Until we are able to grasp that concept,this idea of free will,man being in control,satan being in control,mankind controlling things..everyone being in control of God`s universe except God...then we will never get it. God created everything with a plan and purpose. He did not reliquish control of the ship to mere man. The bible is full of verses that say, God guides, God draws,God directs, God molds,God determines,God selects,God chooses. It`s all about God. Why do we try to make it all about man?
We see something that in human eyes is terrible and say, God couldn`t do that. Out of one side of our mouth we say,God protected me from this or that, or the hand of God kept me safe. But what of the abused children that you speak of. Couldn`t that same God have protected them as well? But he chose not to. But God is not human. His ways are not our ways. He created everything FOR HIS GOOD PLEASURE...not for our pleasure. If someone being taken off of this earth fits God`s plan or serves his purpose,then who are you oh man to reply against God? Did Job`s children deserved to be killed? Did whoever or whatever killed them sin by doing so? It served God`s purpose to destroy everything Job had,including his family,his children,his servants. Yes,God did it. You can deny that point of fact until the cows come home,but God is the one who brought calamity on Job and his house and Job was considered a righteous man. Satan needed PERMISSION from God and God gave it. Satan was the tool that God used on Job to fullfill his purpose.
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Furthermore, with you being a universalist who rejects free will, what is the point of such things? Why have it at all if we were all going to heaven anyway?
You would never be able to understand or appreciate God if you had nothing to compare it to. Could you understand light if you never knew what darkness was? You could not understand or appreciate warmth if you never knew what it felt like to be cold. . Maybe you would be able to understand God in theory,but not in practicality. Therefore God uses what man considers to be evil for his good pleasure.
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There was never a need for evil, God could have simply made us to be 100% obedient all the time. Could God create evil? Sure, but then He wouldn't be holy, loving, or just. He would be the source of all pain and suffering, but we are struggling in our faith to love the very one who has created the pain we are enduring.
Again,you could never fully understand or appreciate mercy,grace,or love if you never knew the opposite. Ever wonder why the tree in the garden contained the knowledge of BOTH good and evil? Why have the knowledge of both on the same tree? why did the tree need the opposites of each other?
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How is that anymore logical? An atheist would look at this and say this is clearly moronic. They are worshipping the very one who is hurting them.
Ever had to spank your child? Ever had to ground them or take something away from them that they enjoyed? Ever had to take your child to get a shot or needle at the doctor`s office? I have and when you see your child, who doesn`t understand what is going on but only understands the pain, crying out to you and asking why you are letting these people do this to them,then you will have an idea about God allowing or orchestrating pain and suffering.
The child cannot understand how this is good for them but you as the wise parent know it is for their benefit. Likewise,we as mere humans cannot understand why God brings or allows suffering. He does it for our good and for his purpose on conforming us to his image and us being able to understand his mercy.
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This poses another problem. You claim God is too loving to send people to eternal damnation, but He is not too loving to do any of the other horrible things that go on in our world.
Once again, temporary suffering for the purpose of conforming isn`t even comparable to being burned alive and tortured for eternity. How can you logically make that comparison? You are comparing apples and oranges.
If you tortured one of your disobediant children for one minute,you would be looked upon as the greatest of evil doers. Heck, even the most vile of criminals are not tortured. Look at all the fuss some people made about the so called torturing of the terriost to garner information to prevent another 911 incident. People had a fit and wanted waterboarding or even denying the terriost a certain amount of sleep from being praticed on them. But you think the eternal torturing of people like your next door neighbor, your aunt,uncle,or grandparent is justified.
In one breath you denounce man imposition and his mindset onto God's charcter, and the next you do exactly what you denounced to begin with by imposing your own mindset onto God's character?
In one breath you denounce man imposition and his mindset onto God's charcter, and the next you do exactly what you denounced to begin with by imposing your own mindset onto God's character?
I personally never said that God is too loving to do those things... God is love.
The problem I see in your post is that you are assigning the words of the bible to God... that is the first mistake... the bible is God's words filtered through human minds and hands... not directly word for word from God...
Who created evil, if not God?
So you are saying we can contribute nothing to God according to the Bible because it has been filtered through man's hands?
Evil, by biblical definition, is anything that is against God. God told Adam and Eve to not eat from the tree of knowledge but they did. They violated His rule and sin was born, thus evil came into the world.
In terms of the devil, I can't know for certain for right now. We are still discussing what passages apply to him and what don't. I'll tell you once we get done with that part.
In one breath you denounce man imposition and his mindset onto God's charcter, and the next you do exactly what you denounced to begin with by imposing your own mindset onto God's character?
I don`t question God`s character. I say God can do whatever he wills. If he wants to take a life, then who am I to question it. If he wants people to suffer trials,who am I to question it. My belief comes from the point of view that God is in control. If you think that is imposing my mindset onto God`s character,then my friend, I don`t know what to tell you.
Perhaps you should try to study and pray a little harder for wisdom and discernment.
But you can CONTINUE to impose yours on him.
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