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I have been puzzling over these issues, and others, for decades now. I have come to understand that if I become dogmatic on one side of the issue, I have to bend scripture that seems to support the other side more than I am comfortable. When we completely commit to a particular stand, we have to STAND there and look for ways to interpret other scripture to fit our stand.
I have come to a personal stand on some of these issues. This is not a stand that will comfort you in your position but does comfort me. I have gone back to the very basics. 1. Is there a God? 2. Was Jesus God's son who died and rose again to give me salvation? I am comfortable answering yes to both of those questions. Every thing else is peripheral.
There is enough in the bible that is black and white and easy to understand to keep me busy the rest of my life. For example, the great commandment, "love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your nieghbor as yourself", keeps me pretty busy.
This may not help your right now as you struggle to convince others that Jesus returned in the first century, but it might help you later when you relax a little from the struggle.
The bible has lots of plain teaching that I need to work on in my personal life. I do not completely neglect these questions, but I have relegated them to a lower place in my priorities.
I need to conform my life to God's word as a first priority.
I have been puzzling over these issues, and others, for decades now. I have come to understand that if I become dogmatic on one side of the issue, I have to bend scripture that seems to support the other side more than I am comfortable. When we completely commit to a particular stand, we have to STAND there and look for ways to interpret other scripture to fit our stand.
I have come to a personal stand on some of these issues. This is not a stand that will comfort you in your position but does comfort me. I have gone back to the very basics. 1. Is there a God? 2. Was Jesus God's son who died and rose again to give me salvation? I am comfortable answering yes to both of those questions. Every thing else is peripheral.
There is enough in the bible that is black and white and easy to understand to keep me busy the rest of my life. For example, the great commandment, "love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your nieghbor as yourself", keeps me pretty busy.
This may not help your right now as you struggle to convince others that Jesus returned in the first century, but it might help you later when you relax a little from the struggle.
The bible has lots of plain teaching that I need to work on in my personal life. I do not completely neglect these questions, but I have relegated them to a lower place in my priorities.
I need to conform my life to God's word as a first priority.
Greetings, Marty Van Diest: Conforming to God' Word is my first priority also. But how does one conform? Is it not first necessary that he understand what the Bible is teaching?
Furthermore, I am not struggling to convince others that Jesus returned in the first century. I am, however, very much interested in demonstrating the grave problem we have when we do not adhere to the plain teachings of Christ--so much so that skeptics and God-haters attack our Lord's integrity because of it! That is the issue here.
IF Jesus plainly said that He was returning to those believers of His generation, but WE teach that He did not, then do not the naysayers have the right to point their fingers and cry "liar!" Is this an issue we should relegate to a lower level of priority?
Should I "relax from the struggle" as you suggest? No! And by ceasing from the struggle I do not place conformity to God's Word on the back burner--I enhance it. This is no simple matter as you might suppose. A very large portion of the NT concerns itself with the Lord's return. If we do not understand when and how that happened, we can not rightly conform ourselves to the Word! We must engage in the struggle, not avoid it.
Study to show yourselves approved; workmen not needing to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Preterist spoke correctly in post 133 about the proposition. Overall one either takes time indicators "literally", or they take the phenomenon "literally". One cannot do both. That is the basic problem. It just seems many people that take the opposing side do little to address this severe weakness that in no other context they would accept. Let you employer pay you "soon".
So why do I pick one over the other?
When I look in the OT I find examples of poetic and expressive language in relation to God's actions. I see God stretching out his hand but clearly symbolically. When I compare any "with the clouds" appearances of God, they are symbolic consistently. I do not find much to go on with regard to time or having such a lapse. Therefore I find support for one over the other.
If that were all of it it would only be an advantage and not as decisive.
Again for example in the context there is much more than time indicators. Who looks to receive the greatest judgment?
Matthew 11
20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Jesus was judging them for what they had been given and what they had done. Who has been given the appearance of Jesus himself today? If the greatest wrath is yet future what offense has been greater than to turn away Christ and his works and crucify him?
Also looking at reward, the followers of Jesus suffered greatly in those days. Everyone was martyred but John. Why would Jesus neglect a generation that spilled all their blood to bring his message? They were clearly being told the great hope was for them. God was soon to judge those that persecuted them. Indeed, when Jerusalem was sacked, the biggest persecutor of Christians was removed as promised. What have we done in this generation that they did not do? Its nice that some middle class American will be raptured away but for what? The founders suffer for naught and the reward goes to those with color TV and indoor plumbing? Yes certainly there is reward in heaven but it is also clear there is continuity in the flesh as well.
Imagine receiving this in their day. What would you think if the days went by and there was nothing for it?
Revelation 3
9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold,[e] I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more.
I can certainly read a coherent story and message assuming 1st century AD as its primary setting. Any other way is just awkward in every way. Its not a story that makes much sense. All I need to do is clean up a few things lost in translation and the Bible is really a remarkably understandable word of God. Things presented today like "left behind" are comic book like at best.
Does the church today have a convincing answer to the skeptics who attack our Lord, His apostles and His Church? Critics recognize that the time statements in the NT declare that Jesus was coming back in that first-century generation.
Does the popular view that Christ's coming was postponed for thousands of years satisfy these assaults? Is it not inconsistent to say that when the Bible uses time indicators, they are not to be taken literally, but when the Church today uses time indicators (e.g. "the Lord is coming soon"), we are to take them literally? Why the double standard for simple, everyday, common words?
There are basically two approaches to the NT time statements--the futurist and the preterist.
The futurist says:
"Time statements can't be taken the way we understand time because, after all, with the Lord a day is a thousand years!"
"When the things Jesus spoke about happen, they will happen soon!"
"Jesus and the apostles merely meant to convey the idea of imminence and not nearness. In other words, Jesus is always on the point of coming!"
The preterist says:
"Everything that Jesus said was going to happen to that generation and to those disciples actually happened as He predicted."
"Everything all of the NT writers eagerly expected to happen in their lifetime, actually happened just as they expected."
Jesus told those disciples right there with Him, that they would not go through all the cities of Israel before He came (Matthew 10:23).
Jesus told those standing right there with Him, that some of them would live to see Him coming in His kingdom (Matthew 16:28).
Jesus told those disciples right there with Him, that their generation would see the fulfillment of all the things Jesus predicted.
Jesus told the living Caiaphas and Sanhedrin that they would see Him coming on the clouds of heaven" (Matthew 26:64).
Whose explanation of these verses is much more Christ-honoring and compelling?
We must ask these three very significant questions about the time statements and time texts:
1. Why were the NT writers clearly indicating in simple words that they thought the Lord was coming back to them?
2. If you had been living back then, how would you have understood the writers' words?
3. When Jesus used time indicators when speaking to His contemporaries, how do you suppose they would have understood His words addressed to them?
I will be grateful for thoughtful and biblical responses!
Preterist
Hi Preterist I know where you come from when you talk about Jesus and his contemporaries. When he uses personal pronouns to speak to them. Also about the apostles. I believe Paul was anticipating Jesus comeing back at any time. Just as we are today. He didn't know either. He was waiting for the blessed hope. That's why he wrote as he did. There are time indicators for the past but there are also time indicators for the future. One time indicator that you use quite often is Matthew 10:23. This scripture, I think you misapply
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Mar 6:7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
Mar 6:30 And the apostles gathered themselves together unto Jesus, and told him all things, both what they had done, and what they had taught.
Luk 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
Luk 9:10 And the apostles, when they were returned, told him all that they had done. And he took them, and went aside privately into a desert place belonging to the city called Bethsaida.
Luk 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
MysticPhD: Who is looking for a "secular significance of what is written?" Do we not derive the "spiritual significance" from the context? It is not reasonable to seek the spiritual apart from the historical settings and audience relevancy of the Scriptures.
When you try to fix the spiritual message in time . . . you remove its eternal relevance and power . . . and yes . . . you are focused on secular issues of historical relevance only. This is NOT a history book for secular teaching of historical events. It is a recording of spiritual events of eternal relevance to the spiritual evolution of humankind. You cheapen it when you judge it by mere historical textual relevance . . . and then try to elevate its significance.
Quote:
Frankly, MysticPhD, your evasion thoroughly inadequate approach is the necessary fuel required by skeptics to continue to stoke their fires of criticism and attacks on Christ, His apostles, the Bible and Christianity.
As I showed with the attacks of Bertrand Russell . . . they will occur anyway . . . as long as significance. importance and focus is placed on historical relevance instead of spiritual relevance. It isn't important to Jesus' significance that it happened in a specific remote corner of the Roman empire to a lowly carpenter among a small ethnic group who rejected him in a specific place and time, etc. etc. The spiritual relevance is that it was expected long before it occurred, the essential aspects were foretold and recorded, and predictions were made and recorded about its impact into the future . . . most of which has now been repeatedly corroborated by millennia of validations. Why would you wish to remove such long-standing evidence of its reality and importance to satisfy some non-believing history buffs looking at the wrong evidence for the wrong answers? The purpose of scripture is clear . . . As Paul said in Romans 15:4,
". . . For whatsoever things were written in times past, were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.."
There is nothing about learning history or getting an anthropology degree. You misuse scripture and you aid those who would weaken its message and invalidate its claims to eternal relevance.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 12-02-2008 at 08:45 PM..
Originally Posted by Preterist
Hi, Richio: It is this simple--Jesus said He was coming back to those of His generation and He did! He said what He meant and meant what He said.
Preterist
In the form of the Holy Spirit or the resurrected Christ?
It wasn't a trick question, but I assume: the Holy Spirit.
Hi Preterist I know where you come from when you talk about Jesus and his contemporaries. When he uses personal pronouns to speak to them. Also about the apostles. I believe Paul was anticipating Jesus comeing back at any time. Just as we are today. He didn't know either. He was waiting for the blessed hope. That's why he wrote as he did. There are time indicators for the past but there are also time indicators for the future. One time indicator that you use quite often is Matthew 10:23. This scripture, I think you misapply
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Mar 6:7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
Mar 6:30 And the apostles gathered themselves together unto Jesus, and told him all things, both what they had done, and what they had taught.
Luk 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
Luk 9:10 And the apostles, when they were returned, told him all that they had done. And he took them, and went aside privately into a desert place belonging to the city called Bethsaida.
Luk 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Consider these Preterist
Born again Jerry
Greetings Jerry: I don't see how I am misapplying Matthew 10:23.
Preterist
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