Did Jesus lie?

[gwynedd1]

Originally Posted by quesodano

That Brings to mind mentioned every knee shall bow tongue confess scriptures Romans 14, Philippians 2. When will this Happen? I thought during the end times. So I guess the body keeps on.

Hi ,quesodano,

I am not aware that many people would think this would occur in the end times. It occurs after death according to scripture.


Hebrews 9

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

[quesodano]

Interesting, But have all men died or been judged?

What do you think about Rev 9:9 Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Are these peoples bowed?

[gwynedd1]

Originally Posted by Richio

I've wondered this...
(concerning pre-trib raptured saints)
And now I wonder about preterist raptured saints...

Well, actually about those who come after...

In the case of the pre-trib rapture: where do all the martyrs come from if there is no one to convert them?
- particularly if the "restainer" is the Holy Spirit - as some maintain.

In the case of the 70 AD rapture & resurrection:
If the whole church was removed from the picture, how do we have Christianity now?

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?
and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent?
Rom 10:13-15

It's sort of like that age old question.
Where did we come from?

Hello Richio,

This has vexed me some as well. Resurrection and rapture are not the same thing. Rapture is an immortal body given to the living. The only thing that seems to imply a rapture is in 1 Thessolonians. Everything else points to death first.

1 Corinthians 15

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead

...

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

I think what is meant by we will not die is we will rise and in the age to come perhaps immediately.
So I am skeptical about a rapture at all. However being restored from death I certainly can see. I also think taking out Jerusalem ended most of the persecution and was a blessing to those alive. Consider this:

2 Thessolonians 1

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Why does judgment provide relief? Wouldn't rapture provide the relief if that was in the mix? I also don't understand why God would remove his workers.

[gwynedd1]

Originally Posted by quesodano

Interesting, But have all men died or been judged?

What do you think about Rev 9:9 Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Are these peoples bowed?

Hi quesodano,

I would say no, not all have been judged. That is why I think the judgment is happening now. One of my guide posts is the Gentile conversion that happened in Acts 11. That is an end time event. I have a hard time indeed as a Gentile myself that this is in the future.

Micah 4

Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the LORD’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And peoples shall flow to it.
2 Many nations shall come and say,

“ Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”

Amos 9

11 “ On that day I will raise up
The tabernacle[c] of David, which has fallen down,
And repair its damages;
I will raise up its ruins,
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom,[d]
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,”
Says the LORD who does this thing.
13 “ Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,

“ When the plowman shall overtake the reaper,
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
The mountains shall drip with sweet wine,
And all the hills shall flow with it.
14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel;
They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them;
They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.
15 I will plant them in their land,
And no longer shall they be pulled up
From the land I have given them,”
Says the LORD your God.

Amos is quoted in Acts 15 .


Lets look at Micah 4 again and compare it to Matthew 25


Micah 4

3 He shall judge between many peoples,
And rebuke strong nations afar off;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.[a]

Matthew 25

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[c]32his angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

I am not sure between the physical and and spiritual realm and the time frames involved. Some of this may also be about God's people or those that believe in him. We do not learn war in general. Considering that Israel lived by the sword and was a separate nation things have changed. We also live side by side with those that do not believe. Reading Joshua should convince anyone that God's people were a people of the sword. Now as promised God's people are sowers of the seed.
Considering the Christianity is now pouring into Africa, Asia and Latin America I wonder.... Reading John 4 and Hebrews 12 I think this is a spiritual mountain.

[quesodano]

Thanks for the Input. I'm a simple person that looks at things literally sometimes. Most of Revelations seems like a dream. As do a many prophesies. As we live here and now, and look to the future... are we ready? There is a holy judgment to come.

Why I look on the every knee will bow with reverence...Simply that EVERY knee will bow (even the unbeliever). The end is written. Whether all is understood is meaningless in a Eclesiatical way. It will come and until it does it isn't here.

I am not advocating not reading and seeking wisdom. I do advocate not giving up or giving in to any revelation that is not a revelation. (That is first hand understanding.)

[Preterist]

Originally Posted by Richio

I've wondered this...
(concerning pre-trib raptured saints)
And now I wonder about preterist raptured saints...

Well, actually about those who come after...

In the case of the pre-trib rapture: where do all the martyrs come from if there is no one to convert them?
- particularly if the "restainer" is the Holy Spirit - as some maintain.

In the case of the 70 AD rapture & resurrection:
If the whole church was removed from the picture, how do we have Christianity now?

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?
and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent?
Rom 10:13-15

It's sort of like that age old question.
Where did we come from?

Greetings, Richio: Many times in my pre-salvation days, I was preached to. I did not respond. I was saved through an old taped televised Billy Graham crusade! It was not a response to "live" words that God used to save me, but through words that had been spoken years before!

My point is this--there were many people still living after A. D. 70 who had heard the words of the Apostles and other Christians (pre-A. D. 70) but had not then been "quickened" by the Holy Spirit to believe. Those previously preached words afterwards were instrumental in bringing about salvation. There was also in existence the Scriptures! Do you not suppose many would have been "preached" to by them and would have responded in salvation?

I really don't see a problem here.

Preterist

[Preterist]

Originally Posted by Richio

Thank you for clearing that up, Preterist.
It was a fairly complete scenario - answering many of the questions I might have had.
Challenging indeed.

Is this the view of preterists in general?
So we are living in the "millennium"?
Why are the nations not under the iron rule of Christ?
What is your understanding of the new earth and new heavens?

Richio: First of all, one should realize that the term millennium is mentioned only one time in the Bible--Revelation 20. Furthermore, it is found in a highly symbolic book and in a book in which the events found were said to be about to take place! The Millennium is not fully described and any association of it with Isaiah 11:6-9 and 65 (as many do) is highly speculative. Nowhere did Jesus or the Apostles teach of a civil government being set up on earth that would last for exactly 1,000 years. The only age they ever spoke of was the age to come--the Gospel age or New Covenant Age. Errors in this area occur because so many insist on a physical fulfillment of that which was to be fulfilled in a spiritual, though actual, and real sense.

What, then, is the Millennium? In Revelation 20 we see the binding of Satan, the reigning with Christ of the martyred, the releasing of Satan and his deceiving of the nations, his expulsion into the lake of fire, and the judgment of the dead. The thousand years, as with many large, even numbers, is representative of completeness or totality, such as God owning the cattle on a thousand hills. Who does not take that to mean that God owns ALL the cattle on ALL hills--not just on an even thousand?

Another key element of this debate is keeping in mind the audience relevance of the context in which words are found. These words were written by a Jew to a predominately Jewish audience using the prophetic apocalyptic language common to Jews. What would the Jewish understanding be of such words found in the Revelation? We must not overlook this and attempt to derive our understanding purely from a western mindset.

Paul wrote in Romans 16:20 (to those at Rome) that God was about to crush Satan under their feet. John himself wrote in his Gospel that "Now is the judgment of his world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out" (John 12:31). Keeping in mind these time restraints provided by both Paul and John, when we consider the context of the Revelation, we can see the releasing of Satan to deceive the nations and using them to fight against Jerusalem occurring in the years prior to and including A. D. 70! It is also important (and too often overlooked) that Satan's power involved the deceiving of nations to keep them from the truths of salvation. He was allowed to do this quite effectively until God opened the door to the Gentiles in fulfillment of His promise to Abraham that He would be the father of many nations. Satan is not to be seen as the author of all evil. Therefore, his removal is not necessary to the removal of wickedness. The deceitful, wicked hearts of mankind are sufficient explanation for the origin of all the evil deeds done in this world. The Devil does not make us sin; we make us sin! Wicked mankind in his totally fallen nature is alone responsible for the evil around us and within us (in our old natures).

We must understand that there are two Jerusalems--physical Jerusalem and spiritual Jerusalem. It was not physical Jerusalem that was the beloved city, for her doom was pronounced by Jesus in Matthew 23 because of her guilt in murdering the prophets and stoning those who were sent to her. It is spiritual Jerusalem that is in mind. Thus, the "old heavens and the old earth" (physical Jerusalem and Judaism) were destroyed and the "new heavens and new earth" (spiritual Jerusalem and the New Covenant age) emerged eternally victorious. There is no destruction of the physical heavens and earth and no creation of physical heavens and earth. These are figurative expressions.

It is my contention (at this point in time) that the Millennium began at Pentecost and involved the power to "reign" that Jesus promised His disciples in Luke 10:18-19--power and "authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy." While my beliefs at this point are not set in stone, this much is--the millennium of Revelation 20 is not a literal one-thousand year period of time in which Jesus physically reigns upon this earth in the midst of animal sacrifices.

Furthermore, Jesus can and does rule the nations--from His seat of glory at the right hand of the Father! He is completely in control and all nations, whether they acknowledge Him or not, are under His "iron rule." If they are not, He is not sovereign!

I would encourage those who are hateful and judgmental of the Preterist view that they at least attempt to understand it before they casually dismiss it or throw the evil "h" word at it. I appreciate your willingness to ask questions and to attempt to understand even though you do not agree. Thank you for that consideration.

Preterist

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by gwynedd1

Hi twin.spin,

Have you considered that every eye will see him is contextual? Have you consider the cultural aspect and means of expression? In a fire, if someone said "everyone out", who is everyone?

.

Hi gwynedd1,
Have I considered "every eye will see him" contextual? Absolutely.
Just as Jesus said in Matthew 28:19 "make disciples of all nations" all is inclusive. These words of Jesus in context means all nations that goes beyond one generation

The same context about all applies here as well.
Matthew 25:32 "All the nations" will be gathered before him.." Again all is inclusive. There is no one generation that will not be present.

Matthew 24:30
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory

Yes, this is why you don't find me agreeing with millenniumists (if there is such a word). The historic teaching has been that the end of all things (the universe and the earth destroyed, the ressurection of all the dead, the "rapture", the final judgement of all people, the eternal destination of the believers and unbelievers) is one continuous event once it starts.

There is no left behind for all nations will be gathered - Jesus didn't lie

All nations will be gathered...they will see the Son of Man (Jesus) - Jesus didn't lie

Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him.. Jesus didn't lie

all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him - Jesus didn't lie

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Who do you think Jesus is talking about here? A buddhist or an islamic?

Could he have in mind many of the tv\book prophesy carnivals so popular today?

[gwynedd1]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Hi gwynedd1,
Have I considered "every eye will see him" contextual? Absolutely.
Just as Jesus said in Matthew 28:19 "make disciples of all nations" all is inclusive. These words of Jesus in context means all nations that goes beyond one generation

The same context about all applies here as well.
Matthew 25:32 "All the nations" will be gathered before him.." Again all is inclusive. There is no one generation that will not be present.

Matthew 24:30
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory

Yes, this is why you don't find me agreeing with millenniumists (if there is such a word). The historic teaching has been that the end of all things (the universe and the earth destroyed, the ressurection of all the dead, the "rapture", the final judgement of all people, the eternal destination of the believers and unbelievers) is one continuous event once it starts.

There is no left behind for all nations will be gathered - Jesus didn't lie

All nations will be gathered...they will see the Son of Man (Jesus) - Jesus didn't lie

Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him.. Jesus didn't lie

all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him - Jesus didn't lie

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Who do you think Jesus is talking about here? A buddhist or an islamic?

Could he have in mind many of the tv\book prophesy carnivals so popular today?

Hi twin.spin,

Whoa there. Those scriptures do not used the same language.

Matthew 28: is all nations.

ἔθνος,n {eth'-nos}
1) a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together 1a) a company, troop, swarm 2) a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus 2a) the human family 3) a tribe, nation, people group 4) in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles 5) Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians



πορευθέντες οὖν μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος,

Matthew 25:32

καὶ συναχθήσονται ἔμπροσθεν αὐτοῦ πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, καὶ ἀφορίσει αὐτοὺς ἀπ' ἀλλήλων, ὥσπερ ὁ ποιμὴν ἀφορίζει τὰ πρόβατα ἀπὸ τῶν ἐρίφων,

Matthew 24:30 does not use eth-nos. It uses this word.

φυλή,n {foo-lay'}
1) a tribe 1a) in the NT all the persons descending from one of the twelve sons of the patriarch, Jacob 2) a nation, people


καὶ τότε φανήσεται τὸ σημεῖον τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐν οὐρανῷ, καὶ τότε κόψονται πᾶσαι αἱ φυλαὶ τῆς γῆς καὶ ὄψονται τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐρχόμενον ἐπὶ τῶν νεφελῶν τοῦ οὐρανοῦ μετὰ δυνάμεως καὶ δόξης πολλῆς:

Now why would the language be tribes and not nations in Matthew 24? Its the same reason why Jesus said those in Judea should flee. If the subject is tribes and Judea it should read the tribes of the land.

There is no question that Matthew 24 is about Judea, not the nations. Though it is clear there would be distress in other areas of the world which was the case with revolts in Gaul and Germania as well as Parthia threatening. They also just had a revolt in Britain led by Boudica where they nearly lost their British possession in 60 AD. Then, during the Jewish revolt, they went into civil war and many thought Rome was finished.


Wars of the Jews, Preface -Josephus.

2. Now at the time when this great concussion of affairs happened, the affairs of the Romans were themselves in great disorder. Those Jews also who were for innovations, then arose when the times were disturbed; they were also in a flourishing condition for strength and riches, insomuch that the affairs of the East were then exceeding tumultuous, while some hoped for gain, and others were afraid of loss in such troubles; for the Jews hoped that all of their nation which were beyond Euphrates would have raised an insurrection together with them. The Gauls also, in the neighborhood of the Romans, were in motion, and the Geltin were not quiet; but all was in disorder after the death of Nero. And the opportunity now offered induced many to aim at the royal power; and the soldiery affected change, out of the hopes of getting money. I thought it therefore an absurd thing to see the truth falsified in affairs of such great consequence, and to take no notice of it; but to suffer those Greeks and Romans that were not in the wars to be ignorant of these things, and to read either flatteries or fictions, while the Parthians, and the Babylonians, and the remotest Arabians, and those of our nation beyond Euphrates, with the Adiabeni, by my means, knew accurately both whence the war begun, what miseries it brought upon us, and after what manner it ended.

[twin.spin]

gwynedd1,
The thing to remember is that Jesus talked about the events that were going to happen (which did so @ 70AD) he used as an microcosm example to what the end of the world was going to be. Which was not uncommon for Jesus or for some of the OT prophets.