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I am not a "futurist" as you probably have figured out, and I agree with you that there is alot of Old Testament prophecy (e.g. plowshares) that was fulfilled when Jesus came. Many, many verses in the OT refer to the spiritual kingdom we are in now as believers, which futurists mistakenly look for in a future physical reign (which Jesus denied!)
But as I believe that to say that the physical coming of Christ, the judgment, "heaven and earth passing" etc. has happened is going abit too far. I look for this as an event in the future.
Hi cg81,
That is good to know thus you are relieved of defending many stupid things that I once defended
The thing that causes me to think the New Heavens and New Earth may not be as we think is Isaiah. How did I get out of this when I held your position not too long ago? I didn't.
Isaiah 65
17 “ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying. 20 “ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD,
And their offspring with them.
24 “ It shall come to pass
That before they call, I will answer;
And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,”
Says the LORD.
The only way to explain and in combination with other scriptures is the New Heaven and New Earth is the age to come. There is still death and mortality just like now in the flesh. It is also strangely what is happening now on key. However after death Jesus at some point must come for those who believe in him. Obviously we are not Resurrected and I do not accept spiritual Resurrection at all.
The animals as I explain elsewhere are not about animals but people. The Lamb and the Wolf is another image about the grain and the tares together also as people(Matthew 13). Its the same parable. Animals are almost never about animals .
1 Corinthians 9
8 Do I say these things as a mere man? Or does not the law say the same also? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain.”[a] Is it oxen God is concerned about? 10 Or does He say it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written, that he who plows should plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should be partaker of his hope
No I don't.. but I do see what you mean. Now that I read it again, the angels didn't expressly say in those scriptures that those same disciples would see Him come "in like manner". Sorry.. my (honest) mistake!
But don't you agree that "in like manner" would seem to mean a physical, literal coming? Also I would find it somewhat odd that the angels would offer this "comfort" to them if it had nothing to do with them, and was simply a random coming "at different times for different people".
cg81,
Ok. I am too used to people adding and subtracting..
I do agree that Jesus must come for us though I am not clear exactly which way but it will be in like manner for salvation, not judgement. I am clear it was not the way in 1:7 Revelation. If you look at chapter 2 and 3 Jesus threatens to come. They did not want Jesus to come to them. He said repent or I come.
No, Jesus did not lie. It was the writers who created his legendary status that did. They thought he was coming back in their time and preached it as such. When things did not materialize the way they expected, they sent their generation and all following generations of Christians into becoming spin doctors to explain away the reason why Jesus has yet to return.
Why the need to even start this charade? Jesus was probably nothing more than one of the many proclaimed messiahs (itinerant preachers) running about the place in first century Judea/Galilee, followed and supported by a motley crew of rebels, disenchanted souls and common folk. These people were living in what they thought were the end times under the hand of the great evil empire - Rome. Naturally, these were people in search of hope and liberation and Jesus supposedly preached such a message even claiming to be the one to start it. This was the message his followers were sent around Israel to preach (according to the Gospels) but then something bad happened on the way to this dream being realized. Jesus was strung up and killed just like just about every other upstart of the time.
So how do you rebuff the critics who scoff at your dead messiah candidate? Well, just tell them he died but he rose from the dead and is off somewhere building mansions and will return again "soon;" like, in your generation. Your job, in the interim, is to continue preaching the message of the kingdom.
While Jesus was alive, he was speaking of a spiritual kingdom, but his return would usher in a physical kingdom which would eradicate all other earthly kingdoms and one that would endure forever. Only one problem; that kingdom never showed up either and so each succeeding generation of Christians are forever repeating the process of their predecessors in seeking converts to join the spiritual kingdom in preparation for the still awaiting physical kingdom to come.
Sounds great but rather suspicious.
Condemned: Do not lump all Christians into the same category. There is a growing number who take Jesus' words seriously and believe that everything He and His apostles predicted came true just as they promised they would.
Where does it say that Christ would usher in a physical kingdom? That is a misrepresentation by futurists.
Futurists and preterists have their biggest disagreements over the nature of His Parousia, judgment, and resurrection promises.
The question becomes: Do we demand a certain nature of these things and then negate or ignore the time statements because they conflict with that presuppositional nature or do we take Jesus and His apostles at their word by accepting the plain meaning of the time statements and reconsidering our concept of the nature of these things?
No I don't.. but I do see what you mean. Now that I read it again, the angels didn't expressly say in those scriptures that those same disciples would see Him come "in like manner". Sorry.. my (honest) mistake!
But don't you agree that "in like manner" would seem to mean a physical, literal coming? Also I would find it somewhat odd that the angels would offer this "comfort" to them if it had nothing to do with them, and was simply a random coming "at different times for different people".
cg81: How do we know that Jesus did not come back to them "in like manner?" We were not there. Did not Jesus tell His disciples in John 14 that they personally were not to be troubled. Why could they and only they of that time frame be troubled? No generation other than that one was troubled at the going away of Jesus! It was to them He brought comfort when He said "Let not YOUR hearts be troubled." It was to THEM that He promised to return. How does this in any way have to do with US? Are WE troubled that Jesus was going to leave US? Did He tell us before it came to pass? Where does He indicate that He was coming back to any other generation than that one? Nowhere.
He did indeed come to those of that generation--at which time He brought judgment and resurrection in that He emptied Hades, raised the righteous and unrighteous captives from it [the righteous went to be with Him; the unrighteous were cast out of His presence forever], those who were alive (e.g. Paul and the other of the "we" class of 1 Thes. 4) were caught up together with them in the clouds and THEY met the Lord in the air, and Hades was forever cast into the Lake of fire. Since that time, we all die, receive our resurrection bodies, and go immediately into His presence (1 Cor. 15). Why do we find it so difficult to believe that they and those who pierced Him literally saw Him coming in such a manner? Even Caiaphas saw Him and the whole Sanhedrin saw Him just as He said they would!
John 14: "Let not YOUR hearts be troubled . . . I go to prepare a place for YOU . . . I will come again and receive YOU to Myself; that where I am, there YOU may be also."
Earlier in 13:26 Jesus answered Simon Peter by saying, "Where I am going YOU cannot follow Me now, but YOU shall follow Me afterward." Peter himself was to follow Jesus some time afterward!
Notice also in 14:18 where Jesus promises those disciples--"I will not leave YOU orphans; I will come to YOU." And again, in verses 25 and following Jesus is clearly addressing those disciples right there with Him. This is the audience relevance that IS so very important to understanding!
"These things I have spoken to YOU while being present withYOU [emphasis mine]. . . . Let not YOUR heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. YOU have heard Me say, 'I am going away and coming back to you . . . . And now I have told YOU before it comes, that when it does come to pass, YOU may believe."
According to the normal usage of language which we employ everyday of our lives without any difficulty, how does this in any way apply to any other than those disciples right there with Jesus? Will we let our preconceived ideas and presuppositions keep us from accepting these clear words? This is the point of this thread--skeptics look at such passages, take them literally (as they should) and then point their fingers at Christ, His apostles, the Bible and the Church and cry "false prophet, false teachers, and false religion!" Again, will we defend His honor?
Jesus returned to THEM just as He promised He would. To teach otherwise makes Him a liar!
cg81: How do we know that Jesus did not come back to them "in like manner?" We were not there. Did not Jesus tell His disciples in John 14 that they personally were not to be troubled. Why could they and only they of that time frame be troubled? No generation other than that one was troubled at the going away of Jesus! It was to them He brought comfort when He said "Let not YOUR hearts be troubled." It was to THEM that He promised to return. How does this in any way have to do with US? Are WE troubled that Jesus was going to leave US? Did He tell us before it came to pass? Where does He indicate that He was coming back to any other generation than that one? Nowhere.
He did indeed come to those of that generation--at which time He brought judgment and resurrection in that He emptied Hades, raised the righteous and unrighteous captives from it [the righteous went to be with Him; the unrighteous were cast out of His presence forever], those who were alive (e.g. Paul and the other of the "we" class of 1 Thes. 4) were caught up together with them in the clouds and THEY met the Lord in the air, and Hades was forever cast into the Lake of fire. Since that time, we all die, receive our resurrection bodies, and go immediately into His presence (1 Cor. 15). Why do we find it so difficult to believe that they and those who pierced Him literally saw Him coming in such a manner? Even Caiaphas saw Him and the whole Sanhedrin saw Him just as He said they would!
John 14: "Let not YOUR hearts be troubled . . . I go to prepare a place for YOU . . . I will come again and receive YOU to Myself; that where I am, there YOU may be also."
Earlier in 13:26 Jesus answered Simon Peter by saying, "Where I am going YOU cannot follow Me now, but YOU shall follow Me afterward." Peter himself was to follow Jesus some time afterward!
Notice also in 14:18 where Jesus promises those disciples--"I will not leave YOU orphans; I will come to YOU." And again, in verses 25 and following Jesus is clearly addressing those disciples right there with Him. This is the audience relevance that IS so very important to understanding!
"These things I have spoken to YOU while being present withYOU [emphasis mine]. . . . Let not YOUR heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. YOU have heard Me say, 'I am going away and coming back to you . . . . And now I have told YOU before it comes, that when it does come to pass, YOU may believe."
According to the normal usage of language which we employ everyday of our lives without any difficulty, how does this in any way apply to any other than those disciples right there with Jesus? Will we let our preconceived ideas and presuppositions keep us from accepting these clear words? This is the point of this thread--skeptics look at such passages, take them literally (as they should) and then point their fingers at Christ, His apostles, the Bible and the Church and cry "false prophet, false teachers, and false religion!" Again, will we defend His honor?
Jesus returned to THEM just as He promised He would. To teach otherwise makes Him a liar!
Preterist
Hi Preterist,
I believe it is possible Jesus did come for them. This seems to indicate 1st century saints having been Resurrected as a special Resurrection. However again this was in death. One is Resurrected from the dead.
Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
I think we must wait to see if we are in the book of life. Though I could be wrong. At some point Jesus must come for us or so I hope.
Now my salvation is being questioned! What makes you ask?
Preterist
I cannot fathom anyone who has been saved to question whether Jesus lied or not. Can God lie? No. God is absolute truth. Jesus is God therefore he cannot lie. Was he tempted while here on earth as a man? Sure, just as he was tempted by many other aspects of humanity. But would he lie? No. For anyone who proclaims salvation to question whether the Christ lied or not...well it makes one wonder.
Are you saved? Not sure. It's not up to me. Seems like you have a lot of head knowledge from the threads and posts you create. Just because you have head knowledge does not mean it has been translated to the heart.
I cannot fathom anyone who has been saved to question whether Jesus lied or not. Can God lie? No. God is absolute truth. Jesus is God therefore he cannot lie. Was he tempted while here on earth as a man? Sure, just as he was tempted by many other aspects of humanity. But would he lie? No. For anyone who proclaims salvation to question whether the Christ lied or not...well it makes one wonder.
Are you saved? Not sure. It's not up to me. Seems like you have a lot of head knowledge from the threads and posts you create. Just because you have head knowledge does not mean it has been translated to the heart.
Do you believe Jesus lied?
Hoosier: You have COMPLETELY misunderstood my thread. I am NOT saying that Jesus lied! I posted quotes from skeptics who say Jesus lied because He clearly promised that He was coming back but according to futurists didn't. My premise is that He promised that He was coming back and He did--the only plausible and reasonable response to the critics. Futurists have no response except delay and postponement theories.
Again, when did I say Jesus lied? Has everyone misunderstood my post?
It makes me question whether some here even read it thoroughly.
Where does it say that Christ would usher in a physical kingdom? That is a misrepresentation by futurists.
Quote:
And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
(Luke 1:31-33)
Quote:
I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed”
For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever...
Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!
(Revelation 11:15)
================================================== ====
Notice that I don't believe any of this stuff but just treating the Bible and Christian interpretation "as is." I stated that Jesus (as per the Bible) preached a spiritual kingdom, but the idea in Israel and amongst his contemporary followers was that he would someday ALSO reestablish the kingdom of Israel OR establish a new kingdom as the above scriptures declare.
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