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Old 11-26-2008, 12:28 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
The problem with picking and choosing which scriptures are valid, is that we can then believe whatever we want.
This is a straw man used by literalists, inerrant Word, and fundies to propagate ridiculous ideas and interpetations not worthy of our advanced knowledge and intellects. The choosing is about which interpretations are valid. That they represent the best that those of limited knowledge were capable of recording is indisputable . . . thinking those primitive renderings could ever be valid (as is) for a modern intellect with advanced knowledge is preposterous. Paul clearly explained this feature of his teachings, apparently unnoticed by today's apostles, in I Corinthians 3:1

. . . And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but only as carnal, as to little ones in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Nor are you now ready for it, for you are still carnal.

Paul tells us, Jesus tells us, virtually every other source of doctrine similarly reveals that what has been said and recorded was geared to the capabilities, understanding, and sophistication of the original audience. Since it was necessary to "feed milk instead of solid food" to the early audience, this necessity must become clear eventually and be recognized. Otherwise, we would forever "drink milk and ignore solid food."
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Old 11-26-2008, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
37,265 posts, read 61,014,574 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
We do not insist that He has returned, except those He wishes to reveal Himself to, while alive in the flesh. All others will wait until they are dead in the flesh, which IF they are alive, will be SOON.

Once a person is anointed with the Spirit, has Christ returned to that person? Of course. It is called an indwelling of the Spirit. This is no different than when Jesus said, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. They are One, as we are One with them.
When the Messiah came in the flesh it was not what the Judeans expected. Their reading of the scriptures and their lore had built a different image. So they were looking for something different.

Today many have studied the scripture of Christ's next coming.

Is it possible that our image of what it will be could be in err?

Such is likely.

The Bible does make a big distinction between Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus. While the two terms are used interchangeably by Christians, in the Bible they are never confused.

'Jesus Christ' is always talking about the man, who was born the son of God, who had an earthly ministry trying to redeem the Judeans, and who was killed as a sacrificial Passover Lamb to pay the price for our sins.

'Christ Jesus' is always the indwelling spirit from God, that is born again within each Christian, which makes us into one body, members under one head which is Jesus.

In a manner of speaking 'Christ in us' is another coming of Jesus.
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Old 11-26-2008, 12:45 PM
 
Location: New York
321 posts, read 677,654 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
If you took the Bible as is, you would believe it!

It has everything to do with the subject.

According to Preterist, that event has happened already.

This is why I can't agree with her conclusions either and why the defense on both sides, in my estimation, is very weak. Then again, who am I? I'm just some mislead heathen who is not "lead by the spirit" to understand these things.
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Old 11-26-2008, 01:13 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,482,307 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
If you took the Bible as is, you would believe it!

It has everything to do with the subject.

According to Preterist, that event has happened already.
Greetings, cg81: I never expressed anything that suggested that what I posted was according to me. I have been attempting to get people to deal with the subject of thread and the very words of Scripture.

Look again at the verses in Matthew 10, 16, 24, 26 (vs. 64), and Mark 13 and Luke 21. What was Jesus saying when He spoke those words of relevance and imminence those disciples right there with Him. Is it unreasonable for skeptics to take Jesus at His word? Why does the Church not see what the unenlightened see? Are we blinded by our preconceived ideas and presuppositions?

I have tried to not make this about me. It is about Jesus' words and why the Church, with its postponement theories, have opened the door to attacks against His honor. How will we defend Him?

Preterist
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Old 11-26-2008, 01:19 PM
 
3,086 posts, read 6,256,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Are we blinded by our preconceived ideas and presuppositions?
Apparently so.

The Bible is quite clear that there will come a time when Jesus will physically return, every eye shall see Him, and everyone will be judged according to their deeds and sent to their eternal reward. Earth and time will be over.

But of course, as Peter said, many people scoff at that idea.
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Old 11-26-2008, 01:34 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,482,307 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
Good.. so then you believe this?

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
I believe that verse, cg81? I believe that it is talking about the precepts and teachings of men or God which were to be judged and done away with. That is the only use of the term stoicheia (elements) in the NT. It never means the chemical makeup of the earth. To make it mean such a thing in 2 Peter is to give it an unprecedented meaning.

Note the following uses of stoicheion:

Gal. 4:3--"were in bondage under the elements of the world"
Gal. 4:9--"to the weak and beggarly elements"
Col. 2:8--"after the rudiments of the world"
Col. 2:20--"dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world"
Heb. 5:12--"the first principles of the oracles of God"

There is nothing here that suggests that the word stoicheion has anything to do with the physical and material earth.

It was the principles of Judaism that was about to be abolished. This abolishment is spoken of in terms of God's judgment on something through the use of the figure of fire. Notice Hebrews 8 which described the passing of the Old which was even then growing old and becoming obsolete and ready to pass away! The Old Covenant (old heavens and earth) was abolished by the coming of the New Covenant in its fullness (new heavens and new earth).

Notice also that Peter is speaking to those of his day. What is the timely relevance of his words to them in light of this coming "destruction" when he asks his contemporaries--"what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, [you] looking forward and hastening the coming day of God." This day of God was coming in their lifetimes--that is why they were to live lives of holy conduct!

Furthermore, they personally were looking for "new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells." THEY were "looking forward to these things" and were to be diligent. Why? THEY personally and actually were to be found in Him in peace, without spot and blameless when the things for which they looked forward came about in their lifetime!

What is your understanding of the CONTEXT of 2 Peter 3:10 and following? What did Peter's words mean to his original audience?

In Christ, Preterist
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Old 11-26-2008, 01:39 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,482,307 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
Apparently so.

The Bible is quite clear that there will come a time when Jesus will physically return, every eye shall see Him, and everyone will be judged according to their deeds and sent to their eternal reward. Earth and time will be over.

But of course, as Peter said, many people scoff at that idea.
cg81: What is the context of the "every eye will see Him" text?

Where in the Scriptures does it say that the "Earth and time will be over?"

Where does the Bible say that everyone, everywhere throughout all time will be judged at some end-of-time event?

How do we answer the critics who take Matthew 10, 16, 24 and Mark 13 literally (as they rightfully should)?

Preterist
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Old 11-26-2008, 01:41 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,482,307 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
If you took the Bible as is, you would believe it!

It has everything to do with the subject.

According to Preterist, that event has happened already.
cg81: I think Condemned is merely asking why you are referring to another verse instead of dealing with those used by critics and skeptics to judge our Lord--the verses found in my original post.

Preterist
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Old 11-26-2008, 01:48 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
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"2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
I believe that verse, cg81? I believe that it is talking about the precepts and teachings of men or God which were to be judged and done away with. That is the only use of the term stoicheia (elements) in the NT. It never means the chemical makeup of the earth. To make it mean such a thing in 2 Peter is to give it an unprecedented meaning.

Note the following uses of stoicheion:

Gal. 4:3--"were in bondage under the elements of the world"
Gal. 4:9--"to the weak and beggarly elements"
Col. 2:8--"after the rudiments of the world"
Col. 2:20--"dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world"
Heb. 5:12--"the first principles of the oracles of God"

There is nothing here that suggests that the word stoicheion has anything to do with the physical and material earth.
I find it interesting that this passage taken as a prediction of the end time would be perfectly matched with scientific predictions of earth's end time . . . and yet it is rejected as such. Interesting. Not only is there no attempt to reconcile scriptural understanding with our vastly advanced scientific knowledge . . . apparently even a potential agreement with science is actively rejected. Odd.
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Old 11-26-2008, 01:58 PM
 
7,784 posts, read 14,852,292 times
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OK, I must a be a real biblical moron because I read these completely different that you do, Preterist....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Matthew 24:29-30, 34: Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign will appear of the Son of Man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. . . . [b]This generation will by no means pass away till [u]all these things take place!"
When was the sun darkened? When did the stars fall from the heavens? When did everyone see the Son of Man return on clouds of Heaven? Answer: They haven't.

BUT

All of those events will take place within one generation. The sun will be darkened and it won't be 300 years for the stars to fall and then another 250 years for the Son of Man to return. How do I know? Because Jesus is not a liar: "This generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place!"

So the generation that sees any of these things will see ALL these things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Matthew 10:22-23: And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes" (emphasis mine).
I think here you're really stretching to NOT see what Christ was teaching. He was saying, and I quote, "When they persecute you in this city, flee to another." This is a message for those He was speaking to AND us, Preterist. You seem insistent that the words Christ spoke only applied to those literally there and in hearing of Him. Not true. If that were true, there would be no reason for it to be included in our texts. Christ was saying WHEN Christians are persecuted, they should flee and that when that times comes, Christians will not have gone through the cities of Israel before Christ returns. As it is now, there are still many safe cities Christians can flee to before even reaching Israel, so.....once again....in my opinion, this is clearly a future circumstance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Matthew 16:27, 28: For the Son of Man is will come, in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
Preterist, I have no ill will towards you and certainly don't want to offend you, but the way you interpret scripture is beyond me.

This verse above was fulfilled when Jesus ascended to the Father's right side. Jesus came into His Kingdom shortly after His resurrection and the 'some who are standing here' are clearly described in the first book of Acts.

I'm sure there must be some huge error with the way I am looking at these verses or else there would not be such huge controversy about them, but I, Alpha8207, have no problem taking Christ at His word and believe that what I've posted above more than adequately answers the skeptics, as far as I am concerned.

That being said, please know something about skeptics.....after you answer one question, they pick a new one to make you try and answer....and another....and another.....I'm not taking my time to try appease skeptics and I'm also not taking my time to post more verbiage from atheists' works and non-believers tomes than I am the Holy Bible, which is the ultimate answer for all skeptics (self included).

ETA: If preterism is true, then is OK to remove Revelations from my Bible?
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