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Yes, you're right, sadly it does seem rare with some Christians. I try hard to to fall into that category.
I know, ILNC.
And while it's on my mind, before I forget to add this, it does raise a question in my mind. If one is to try and understand, to sympathize, empathize, etc... Is it out of one's genuine humanity in trying to do so or is it to subversively try and get one to believe? Because there's one that seems very altruistic and real and another that seems very fake and that's where I often pick up on the inability for many to sympathize, empathize and understand.
Troop, great question! Paul is giving counsel on how to spread the news of God's Kingdom...how to make believers of unbelievers. First of all, we do have some common ground with even people in remote lands or extremely different beliefs and customs. We are all plagued with sickness, grief, joys, etc. We are all humans, so we do have a commonality (is that even a word?).
Paul was being specific about not stumbling others. For example, Paul who did not think anything of buying meat products from sacrificed animals, because, in his eyes, those sacrifice were nothing...to false gods. His conscience was clean eating them. However, to the person who sacrificed the animal it could be viewed as disrespectful. So not to stumble the person and have them close their ears to Paul, he would abstain from eating the meat.
There are customs and practices that we can respect. A believer who is preaching to others must be careful that they are not being swayed in their devotion to the true God. As to yoking yourself with an unbeliever, I believe that would be evident in your mindset and heart condition.
For example, I as a Christian (although some on here say my beliefs disqualify me), do not celebrate Christmas due to the pagan origins. I will be visiting my inlaws during that time, because it is our only time off from work. They celebrate Christmas...so what do I do? I don't want to stumble them or insult them. I'm sure my mother in law will be cooking a delicious meal, and they'll have a tree, etc. So if I were to yoke myself and become so caught up in the celebration, that I abandon my faith...that would be wrong. However, I as a rational adult would sit down at the table and eat a meal so lovingly prepared by my MIL, because as a human I need nourishment and I do enjoy her company. If I were to sit up in my room and eat a pbj sandwich, I would offend her and she may be less inclined to learn about the bible truths. I make my stands for my faith where there is no compromising...and if those around me ask, I can explain the scriptural reasons. Hopefully, if I have been genuine and kind to her then she'll be more inclined to listen.
And while it's on my mind, before I forget to add this, it does raise a question in my mind. If one is to try and understand, to sympathize, empathize, etc... Is it out of one's genuine humanity in trying to do so or is it to subversively try and get one to believe? Because there's one that seems very altruistic and real and another that seems very fake and that's where I often pick up on the inability for many to sympathize, empathize and understand.
It should be out of genuine concern and love for the person, but sadly that's not always the way it is.
I have a question! I bet you all thought I'd never ask, huh?
In 1 Corinthians Chapter 9 Verses 19-27, I believe it is Paul (or was it Peter??) speaking and the part that struck me the most was this:
Verse 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
Verse 21 To them that are without law, as without law, that I might gain them that are without law.
Verse 22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
Now, the way I understand these verses as well as the context of the background in which they are said is that if one is to preach the gospel, win the hearts and minds of Christ they must "become a Jew, gain the Jew, etc..."
So, the way I see this is that if you're off in some jungle preaching the gospel, you would want to come unto the people as the people are. Wear their clothes, eat their food, speak their language and essentially be unto them as they are in order to win their hearts and minds.
Now, I have a question. How does this stand in light of a person who doesn't believe such as myself? For, to walk with me, and to "become a Troop, gain a Troop, etc..." a believer must put oneself in the position of not believing at all. How does one reconcile this? Especially in light of the fact that Verse 19 states this:
Verse 19 - For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
Now, if one is a servant unto all, this I presume would also include me, than how does one go about "yoking" with me, the yokel, in order to gain my "spiritual trust" without compromising your own beliefs? Because you can wear the same clothes as me, talk the same language as me, eat the same food as me but in the end that doesn't mean I even believe there is a God to begin with.
So, how do you "yoke" yourself with me, put yourself in my shoes, walk my walk, talk my talk, and eat my food without compromising your belief - because I don't see how these two levels of stark contrast find a middle ground.
Furthermore, I don't see how one can be a servant to all and still rescind to laws stating one must not "yoke" themselves with non-believers.
Interested to hear your replies.
Interesting and quite important question, IMO.
A few thoughts on the subject:
I believe, what we need to start out with as human beings, is to realize that really there is more that is the same about us than what is different. You are painting yourself as an un-understandable and alien person to the rest of us, but I think you might be surprised how similar all of us really are.
This is the understanding we need to operate on if we are to get anywhere in relationships, IMO. If you look at Paul’s life, he had walked a path many others had not, and this definitely made him useful. He had been a staunch, well-respected and faultless Jew under the law, he had become weak (blind) and all these experiences gave him insight that not everyone had, and he could use these to relate to his fellowman. He was not afraid to identify with this. I don’t think we should either... we all have experiences in life.. happy, sad, shameful, tragic, loving, hateful, prosperous, fulfilling.. (for some on it might appear on a higher scale than others) and in order to relate to our fellowman we need to be willing to revisit those experiences. The tendency might be for any of us to just deny we’ve been anything else than perfect and happy.. to say with the self-righteous Pharisee “I’m glad I’m not like him.”
So how do we relate to non-believers? Well, I don’t know.. how do I? I find as I follow the above thinking (really... he’s just like me, I’m much like him) I don’t think we’ll have a problem “being all things to all people” without compromising our beliefs.
Quote:
And while it's on my mind, before I forget to add this, it does raise a question in my mind. If one is to try and understand, to sympathize, empathize, etc... Is it out of one's genuine humanity in trying to do so or is it to subversively try and get one to believe? Because there's one that seems very altruistic and real and another that seems very fake and that's where I often pick up on the inability for many to sympathize, empathize and understand.
Anything subversive in a relationship won't stay that way very long. Genuine love and concern isn't subversive. "Get one to believe" isn't really the point.. someone who has entered into a new life with God, had their sins washed away, and has experience His awesome love wants to share this love with others, and live a life that glorifies and points to God. It's natural, and not subversive... an out-pouring of what has been shown to us.
Troop, great question! Paul is giving counsel on how to spread the news of God's Kingdom...how to make believers of unbelievers. First of all, we do have some common ground with even people in remote lands or extremely different beliefs and customs. We are all plagued with sickness, grief, joys, etc. We are all humans, so we do have a commonality (is that even a word?).
Paul was being specific about not stumbling others. For example, Paul who did not think anything of buying meat products from sacrificed animals, because, in his eyes, those sacrifice were nothing...to false gods. His conscience was clean eating them. However, to the person who sacrificed the animal it could be viewed as disrespectful. So not to stumble the person and have them close their ears to Paul, he would abstain from eating the meat.
There are customs and practices that we can respect. A believer who is preaching to others must be careful that they are not being swayed in their devotion to the true God. As to yoking yourself with an unbeliever, I believe that would be evident in your mindset and heart condition.
For example, I as a Christian (although some on here say my beliefs disqualify me), do not celebrate Christmas due to the pagan origins. I will be visiting my inlaws during that time, because it is our only time off from work. They celebrate Christmas...so what do I do? I don't want to stumble them or insult them. I'm sure my mother in law will be cooking a delicious meal, and they'll have a tree, etc. So if I were to yoke myself and become so caught up in the celebration, that I abandon my faith...that would be wrong. However, I as a rational adult would sit down at the table and eat a meal so lovingly prepared by my MIL, because as a human I need nourishment and I do enjoy her company. If I were to sit up in my room and eat a pbj sandwich, I would offend her and she may be less inclined to learn about the bible truths. I make my stands for my faith where there is no compromising...and if those around me ask, I can explain the scriptural reasons. Hopefully, if I have been genuine and kind to her then she'll be more inclined to listen.
Hi Beevee! Long time no see and long time no hear. I was beginning to think you were disowning your heathen friend Troop for some reason.
I see what you are saying in how you would eat dinner with your family and somewhat partake in the celebration of Christmas with them despite the fact that you don't celebrate it yourself. This, I think, is a rather human characteristic that anyone could find within themselves to do. For example, I don't believe in the virgin birth and I don't believe in anything to do with Christmas other than it has always been a time where my family and I shared great moments together. So, I will surely participate in the festivities this year and I'll even say "Merry Christmas" once in a while. These are all things that I think any decent human being can and will do without sacrificing who and what they are. My parents know not to ask me to say a little prayer at the dinner table because they know they'll get some witty retort in reply rather than a blessing. So, they haven't asked me to say anything for a VERY long time but they hold mutual respect for me because they know I don't believe a word of it - and I often don't think they do either except in traditional practice.
Anyway, I suppose the reason I am asking is because I am a very ordinary person whose Atheism doesn't really define who I am and the way I live my life. Surely, what you see on the forum is "Troop the Atheist" and I may only see "Beeveenh the Christian" but I think you'll agree that there are other elements of our personality that define us. However, the impression I have is that when you get up from your computer you still try to be "Beeveenh the Christian" because that is your code or set of beliefs to be - a good Christian. I, on the other hand, I don't really have that same thing. I don't get up and try to be a good Atheist because there's nothing to typify or base off of what "a good Atheist" is.
So, the reason I am asking is because if I am defined by much more than my simple non-belief but by how I interpret the world, how I see the world, how I interact with the world in totality, I can probably assure you it is very different than most people's perception and reality. So, yeah, you could come over to my house and drink a few beers, cook some steaks on the grill, snort cocaine off my countertops (only kidding - just seeing if you were paying attention ) and you could be my friend and we'd get along great but I don't quite understand how you would be able to convince me that your God was real in doing so.
For, as I mentioned before, emotional appeal to get me to believe something doesn't really work. If, in time of crisis, you came to me as my friend and told me that God was looking out - I may say thank you because I understand, or at least think I understand what that means to you, but it doesn't mean I would really and truly believe it.
So, I guess I'm still confused - and perhaps there is no real answer - as to how someone could actually come into my world and see the things I see (not like I'm a prophet, just my perceptions on things) or the way I interpret things and convince me that there is a God without first questioning their beliefs to begin with. This, I think, is what "yoking" with yokels like myself is referring to - and simultaneously, I think this is the level in which your Bible refers to not "yoke" with unbelievers in the same capacity as me - not saying we can't be friends - just saying don't try to step into my shoes because you'll never come back once you do.
Now, with that being said, I suppose that Paul could just be talking about appealing to people's emotions through living their culture, walking their walk and talking their talk - to gain acceptance within a crowd and from there convincing them of the ways in which one worships Christ. This I can see - and I suppose I could do the same thing as an unbeliever if I wanted to go into the jungle and tell them why God wasn't real.
But, I guess I'm just wondering how you try to reach someone who does not buy into the emotional appeal of 'wish-thinking' and really does not believe in anything supernatural at all. How do you even make the first step in trying to get someone to not only believe in the supernatural with the type of evidence I demand but also take such a great leap of faith onto the specific Christian God? And how does one do that with genuine, fortuitous honesty and altruism without compromising who they are as well as who I am - in essence - without crossing boundaries?
I hope that's not too "deep" as there is something specific I am trying to get at but I keep feeling as if words are eluding me to properly explain it. I hope you all understand what I'm getting at.
Troop, I have thought a lot in the past about the verses you are referring to..Paul, as you know was a stalker and a murderer of Christians before he met up with Jesus ( who appeared to him on the famous road to Damascus) IMO Paul could put himself in the mind of the thieves,adulterers, unbelievers and other lowlife, because he had pretty much been there and done that..
I have not done all those things, but I have been able to imagine the unbelievers point of view and to be perfectly honest with you and the other atheists on this board, the christians are wasting their time trying to lead you to the Lord..Simply because we (christian/believers) can't all agree on hardly anything amongst ourselves..Says a whole lot about "Unity", huh? I can see through the eyes of the unbeliever how childish and silly the arguements appear to you and the others..
I don't look at this board as my personal Sunday School Class or as my personal pulpit to make everyone believe as I do...I come here to participate in what I hope are friendly debates and discussions of our differences in beliefs without getting angry if someone disagrees and to learn a little from everyone and I try to respect that we do not all think alike and never will..
You have learned some valuable lessons from us though because we have had threads in the past about it, and you have responded.. We have learned from you and other atheists like our old friend Montana who teaches us about tolerance and patience.. June does a good job of showing the christians what we call Christian love and gentlenes, only she does it without thinking if it is biblical
Personally, I can be your friend or anyones friend without trying to force my beliefs on you..with me it is the personality that counts, not ones belief system..If a person tells me they believe in God or the Creator, he has told me his belief If they want to have a conversation about it, I will certainly participate and hope to learn something from him and maybe he will learn something from me..I call that planting the gardenIf nothing sprouts he is still my friend..
I am often accused of being a fence sitter here.,whatever that is, but evidently I have good balance, because I have not fallen off
I have a question! I bet you all thought I'd never ask, huh?
In 1 Corinthians Chapter 9 Verses 19-27, I believe it is Paul (or was it Peter??) speaking and the part that struck me the most was this:
Verse 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
Verse 21 To them that are without law, as without law, that I might gain them that are without law.
Verse 22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
Now, the way I understand these verses as well as the context of the background in which they are said is that if one is to preach the gospel, win the hearts and minds of Christ they must "become a Jew, gain the Jew, etc..."
So, the way I see this is that if you're off in some jungle preaching the gospel, you would want to come unto the people as the people are. Wear their clothes, eat their food, speak their language and essentially be unto them as they are in order to win their hearts and minds.
Now, I have a question. How does this stand in light of a person who doesn't believe such as myself? For, to walk with me, and to "become a Troop, gain a Troop, etc..." a believer must put oneself in the position of not believing at all. How does one reconcile this? Especially in light of the fact that Verse 19 states this:
Verse 19 - For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
Now, if one is a servant unto all, this I presume would also include me, than how does one go about "yoking" with me, the yokel, in order to gain my "spiritual trust" without compromising your own beliefs? Because you can wear the same clothes as me, talk the same language as me, eat the same food as me but in the end that doesn't mean I even believe there is a God to begin with.
So, how do you "yoke" yourself with me, put yourself in my shoes, walk my walk, talk my talk, and eat my food without compromising your belief - because I don't see how these two levels of stark contrast find a middle ground.
Furthermore, I don't see how one can be a servant to all and still rescind to laws stating one must not "yoke" themselves with non-believers.
Interested to hear your replies.
Excellent question!
Imagine a yoke on an ox. The ox is guided by the yoke, takes it's direction from the yoke. Starts and stops are commanded by the yoke.
Now I'm sure I could rely on you to direct me in traffic, or around an airport () or even intellectually. I'm sure you and I would have agood time together, and I'm confident I can trust you with many things.
But spiritually, you may not be up to the task ( by your own admission)
So.. I should not be spiritually directed by those not qualified.
How do I approach you as an atheist?
I start with the absolute belief that ALL human beings,
when confronted by absolute perfect Love, will not deny it.
The challenge is to express it in a way that does not conjur up all the man made and institutional religious abuses, and embarrassments.
I believe, what we need to start out with as human beings, is to realize that really there is more that is the same about us than what is different. You are painting yourself as an un-understandable and alien person to the rest of us, but I think you might be surprised how similar all of us really are.
This is the understanding we need to operate on if we are to get anywhere in relationships, IMO. If you look at Paul’s life, he had walked a path many others had not, and this definitely made him useful. He had been a staunch, well-respected and faultless Jew under the law, he had become weak (blind) and all these experiences gave him insight that not everyone had, and he could use these to relate to his fellowman. He was not afraid to identify with this. I don’t think we should either... we all have experiences in life.. happy, sad, shameful, tragic, loving, hateful, prosperous, fulfilling.. (for some on it might appear on a higher scale than others) and in order to relate to our fellowman we need to be willing to revisit those experiences. The tendency might be for any of us to just deny we’ve been anything else than perfect and happy.. to say with the self-righteous Pharisee “I’m glad I’m not like him.”
So how do we relate to non-believers? Well, I don’t know.. how do I? I find as I follow the above thinking (really... he’s just like me, I’m much like him) I don’t think we’ll have a problem “being all things to all people” without compromising our beliefs.
Hey there, cg81. You were one of the people I was hoping to hear from.
I agree that human beings are by and large human beings and we can relate on many levels to 'interconnect' and be friends. Like I was mentioning to beevee, we could definitely be friends, comrades, and party animals (come on... no party animals in here???) together but that is the elucidation and human interaction that makes us human. Stepping aside from "Christian v. Atheism" as human beings we would probably hold a lot in common and in that light I certainly don't feel misunderstood or 'alien' because I do tend to get along with people very well in my life.
Yet, to narrow the spectrum and wavelength down to how a believer interacts with someone such as myself is what I am curious about. Because then we are talking about making an approach, walking my walk, talking my talk, etc... in order to get me to believe. So, here we stand, you and I in my living room after we've just high-fived one another after watching our favorite sports team win a ball game and you feel it's time to bring up the subject. Kind of like "the talk" a father and son have.
So, how do you, after attaining my trust and friendship, go about doing that without compromising who you are? If you are to approach me and tell me about a reality that is completely and utterly beyond what I deem rational, regardless of how you've "become a Troop, talked to the Troop, and befriended the Troop" it doesn't make your beliefs any more tangible to me.
In order to do that, one would, I think, have to sort of lose their faith in totality and then bring me along with them for the ride back to believing. This, I don't see as really being possible for a believer to do and it seems to me that you would compromise exactly what it was Paul was saying not to compromise in order to do so.
So, perhaps what Paul was referring to was simply just a method or practice that would work with a lot of people - but not necessarily all? Because I do think that one must walk and talk with people to win their hearts and minds. For example, in Iraq, we have completely changed our approach in how we give our perceptions off to the general Iraqi population - we are beginning to walk and talk with them rather than 'conquer' them. But, we as Americans (and Canadians) can not or would not necessarily be able to change their beliefs and convictions in that light - just simply show a mutual empathetic understanding and that is a good "yoking" relationship if I must say so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81
Anything subversive in a relationship won't stay that way very long. Genuine love and concern isn't subversive. "Get one to believe" isn't really the point.. someone who has entered into a new life with God, had their sins washed away, and has experience His awesome love wants to share this love with others, and live a life that glorifies and points to God. It's natural, and not subversive... an out-pouring of what has been shown to us.
To continue on with my last sentence and being a good "yoking" relationship, this is how you win people over and win acceptance. The way I see it, and this is my personal opinion, Christianity has brought itself a lot of undue attention because of the approach they have taken with people.
Without trying to empathize and understand, without trying to essentially take Paul's advice, they have ostracized themselves from being a once widely revered and admired religion to one that is torn asunder from very many scandals and often poked and prodded at with sometimes extreme criticism and that criticism has not always come unwarranted, in my opinion.
Essentially, to re-focus on our analogy of the Iraqis finally, on a superficial premise, accepting Americans in their country, we had to shift the perception of ourselves as "invaders and conquerors" to empathizers, liberators, and friends. Now, at first, we were not genuine and we were not sincere with that despite what we were being told by everyone in the media.
The same can be said for the way Christians approach people. To approach not as conquerors or invaders but to approach as empathizers, perhaps even as liberators and friends, may not change convictions, souls (if one believes they exist), or beliefs but it may enable that idea, that spread of Christianity to not have IED's planted along the roadside every few meters. That, I think, is what I am essentially trying to get at.
You may never be able to win me over. You may never be able to make an Iraqi citizen a full-blown American (I know... Legally you could but you catch my drift) but that doesn't mean we can't empathize and be friends.
I think that this would provide a moratorium for sanctity and fellowship even through mutual disagreement in order for us to have a peaceful cohabitation and environment.
Therefore, I do find Paul's advice to be good words of wisdom for any basic human relation - as long as it is not done with subversive intent to sway other people. I am usually very quick to pick up on that sort of thing and nothing will infuriate me faster than to approach me as a friend with the ulterior conviction and motivation to make me believe - because that's not what friends do, that's not what Americans should do in Iraq, and that's not the way the world works.
And keeping all that in mind, we can all still keep our boundaries intact.
Ok... I'm done for a little bit. I've got steaks marinating, potatoes to mash, and beer to drink.
Have a good evening folks!
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I am but your humble servant.
, because he had pretty much been there and done that..
If nothing sprouts he is still my friend..
