Christmas-A Christian Holiday? (Baptist, Christians, celebrating, birthday)

[juj]

Merry Christmas!!

And

God bless us all, every one!!

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by bluepacific

Perhaps you'll find this video interesting. It takes some bit of time , but very fascinating. I have no idea who the organization of researchers is , but make sure you have the time to view it. Almost like a History Channel episode.

http://tellingthetruth.50webs.com/4-4.html

I am quite familiar with the pagan roots of Christmas celebrations. The point that is missed is (as I have repeatedly said) is that the WHAT of the celebrations is NOT what made them pagan . . . it was the WHY of them (i.e., what was worshiped). Trying to connect the WHAT of the celebrations as pagan when the WHY is completely different is nonsense. Nothing pagan is being celebrated just because the WHAT was used in pagan worship. They are NOT being used in pagan worship today.

[bluepacific]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

I am quite familiar with the pagan roots of Christmas celebrations. The point that is missed is (as I have repeatedly said) is that the WHAT of the celebrations is NOT what made them pagan . . . it was the WHY of them (i.e., what was worshiped). Trying to connect the WHAT of the celebrations as pagan when the WHY is completely different is nonsense. Nothing pagan is being celebrated just because the WHAT was used in pagan worship. They are NOT being used in pagan worship today.

I understand everyone simply wants to have fun and a good time. Nothing wrong with that , but there was a reason that we have the historical account of the Israelites and their God Jehovah's dealinga with them. Though we are not under the Mosaic Law as in the old covenant relationship God and Israel had with one another, the basic standards and principles involved should still of interest to all Christians today. The Apostle Paul, after relating experiences of things that befell the nation of Israel gave reasons why the old historical record was still of importance to Christians. Notice what Paul stated at:

1 Corinthians 10:11,12 - "New International Version"

[11]"These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

[12]"So, if you think you are standing, be careful that you don't fall."

Notice the way the "Message Bible" renders it.

"These are all warning markers - danger! - in our history books, written down so that we don't repeat their mistakes. Our positions in the story are parallel - they at the beginning - we at the end - and we are just as capable of messing it up as they were. Don't be so naive and self-confident. You're not exempt. You could fall flat on your face as anyone else. Forget about self-confidence; it's useless. Cultivate God-confidence."

Paul also had this to say at:
Romans 15:4 - "New International Version"

"For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and encouragement of the scriptures we might have hope."

Being that everything was written and recorded for our benefit, I'll just take one example (and there are thousands) of the stubborn pattern Israel had of adopting pagan concepts and incorporating them into true clean pure worship of their own God Jehovah and how they reasoned it out and justified it.

Here's the recorded account at Exodus 32:4-10 - "New International Version"
BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: Exodus 32:4-10;

Notice that the Israelites adopted an Egyptian religious practice, but justified this by giving it a new name, "A festival to Jehovah". But Jehovah their God severely punished them for this. But why did he do that ??? Was'nt it okay to celebrate as long as they DID NOT actually believe in that pagan Egyptian god ??? Did'nt renaming the event and calling it after their own true God Jehovah make it clean and acceptable ??? Apparently not to Jehovah.

Today, as you've stated, we see only the 20th century practices associated with Christmas. And I would agree that nobody is thinking about celebrating or glorifying anything that is pagan. For that matter I don't think even atheists or agnostics think of anything religious one way or the other. It's simply having a good time with friends and family. Many view it as you do, harmless. However, Jehovah God observed firsthand and saw the beginning of these various pagan religious practices from which they originated. Should not his view be what matters most to us ??? True, he does intervene in the affairs of Christians in a direct way as he did with the Israelites. Still, our future everlasting life is based on our faithfulness and integrity of doing the right thing despite what the majority of mankind pursue.

Everyone still has free will to choose what they wish.

[lovethetruth]

Originally Posted by alicenevada

What about the lies associated w/ Christmas...Santa Claus, three wise men (not a scriptural teaching), the star of bethlehem being a gift from God etc.

I believe the star of Bethlehem was a miracle from God and I believe the 3 wise men are also mentioned in the bible. As for Santa Claus, he came along much later.

[lovethetruth]

Originally Posted by alicenevada

The birth of Christ is VERY important but the fact still remains that he never instructed for us to celebrate it, since he came to earth to die. Yes, the events surrounding his birth are VERY important as well, but the early Christians did not celebrate birthdays. The main reason for this was that the surrounding nations put much emphasis on 'self' and therefore celebrating your birth was considered fostering an unholy attitude.
.

Jesus never instructed alot of things, yet you all have a plethora of man made rules.

[lovethetruth]

And if I am not mistaken, I don't remember anyone in the bible celebrating their wedding anniversary, yet most christians do.

[alicenevada]

Can you tell me a reason NOT to celebrate my wedding anniversary? God established the institution of marriage; therefore it deserves celebrating in my eyes. However, if I found that God disapproved of my going to dinner w/ my husband or going to see a show on that day, you can bet I'd stop doing it.

[lovethetruth]

Originally Posted by alicenevada

Can you tell me a reason NOT to celebrate my wedding anniversary? God established the institution of marriage; therefore it deserves celebrating in my eyes.

God instituted the birth arrangement, therefore it deserves celebrating in my eyes.

[alicenevada]

You don't find it significant that the only two birthdays celebrated in the bible are put in such an unholy light? Or that the early Christians considered the celebrating of them as 'self-worship' and something the nations did?

[Towhee]

Originally Posted by bluepacific

I understand everyone simply wants to have fun and a good time. Nothing wrong with that , but there was a reason that we have the historical account of the Israelites and their God Jehovah's dealinga with them. Though we are not under the Mosaic Law as in the old covenant relationship God and Israel had with one another, the basic standards and principles involved should still of interest to all Christians today. The Apostle Paul, after relating experiences of things that befell the nation of Israel gave reasons why the old historical record was still of importance to Christians. Notice what Paul stated at:

1 Corinthians 10:11,12 - "New International Version"Notice the way the "Message Bible" renders it.Paul also had this to say at:
Romans 15:4 - "New International Version"Being that everything was written and recorded for our benefit, I'll just take one example (and there are thousands) of the stubborn pattern Israel had of adopting pagan concepts and incorporating them into true clean pure worship of their own God Jehovah and how they reasoned it out and justified it.

Here's the recorded account at Exodus 32:4-10 - "New International Version"
BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: Exodus 32:4-10;

Notice that the Israelites adopted an Egyptian religious practice, but justified this by giving it a new name, "A festival to Jehovah". But Jehovah their God severely punished them for this. But why did he do that ??? Was'nt it okay to celebrate as long as they DID NOT actually believe in that pagan Egyptian god ??? Did'nt renaming the event and calling it after their own true God Jehovah make it clean and acceptable ??? Apparently not to Jehovah.

Today, as you've stated, we see only the 20th century practices associated with Christmas. And I would agree that nobody is thinking about celebrating or glorifying anything that is pagan. For that matter I don't think even atheists or agnostics think of anything religious one way or the other. It's simply having a good time with friends and family. Many view it as you do, harmless. However, Jehovah God observed firsthand and saw the beginning of these various pagan religious practices from which they originated. Should not his view be what matters most to us ??? True, he does intervene in the affairs of Christians in a direct way as he did with the Israelites. Still, our future everlasting life is based on our faithfulness and integrity of doing the right thing despite what the majority of mankind pursue.

Everyone still has free will to choose what they wish.

Excellant examples and scriptures Thank you...I am in complete agreement. ( I would rep you, but can't.)