God is pro-choice!!! (Christ, Israel, Isaiah, creation)

[ShanaBrown]

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. (John 8:44-49)


I believe there have been and still are people who will never love and obey God. Jesus wasn't speaking of their works which could be redeemed, he was telling these people that they are of their father the devil. I believe that the Pharasies knew Jesus was who he said he was, but willingly rejected him because it would have stripped them of their authority, power and standing.

Jesus also said that no one could come to Him, unless the Father drew the person. Many rejected Him and yes this due to the influence of satan, according to the purpose of God. All is out of God and He sees beginning to end. God Himself delivered Jesus over to his murderers according to His plan.

I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. (Rev. 2:9)


These people still exist today. They know of the power of the true God and of our savior Christ Jesus, but they reject him utterly to gain the riches and power over the earth. These people, in my opinion will never be saved. They will acknowledge and bow because they are still subordinate, but will ultimately reject him.

I agree that many like this exist today, but there are many scriptures which speak of the eventual subjection and restoration of all. All will return to Him and worship Him. Isaiah 45:22-25 speaks of all bowing before Him and swearing allegiance to Him.

Isaiah 45
22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24"They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength '
Men will come to Him,
And )all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
25"In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
Will be )justified and will glory." (NAS)

Isaiah 45:
22Turn to Me, and be saved, all ends of the earth, For I [am] God, and there is none else.
23By Myself I have sworn, Gone out from my mouth in righteousness hath a word, And it turneth not back, That to Me, bow doth every knee, every tongue swear.
24Only in Jehovah, said hath one, Have I righteousness and strength, Unto Him he cometh in, And ashamed are all those displeased with Him.
25In Jehovah are all the seed of Israel justified, And they boast themselves.' (Young’s Literal)

Swear =Shaba=to complete, to swear, to confirm with an oath, to swear to, to pledge allegiance to God through an oath, to bind by an oath; Whether in religious or secular contexts, swearing was the giving of one’s unbreakable word that he would faithfully perform a promised deed or that he would not harm his partner. (Hebrew/Greek word studies)




They are not rejecting Him if they are worshipping Him and swearing allegiance to Him. This bowing to Him will be an act of worship. Kampto the NT word as used in Philippians 2 and Romans 14 means the bowing of the knees in religious veneration, worship. They will not be rejecting Him, then.

Psalms 22:
27. All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28. For the kingdom is the LORD'S
And He rules over the nations.
29. All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive




God bless.

[ShanaBrown]

If God exists in Christian form then he is definately not pro-choice because there is always the threat of hell. It's all very well saying that he lets us make our own decisions but if we get sent to a fiery pit for all eternity for making the wrong ones then we most certainly do not have freedom

I agree if you believe eternal hell to be the case. Many "choose" God for fire insurance. How can this be love? God sees beginning to end. He brings the creation into existence knowing that the majority has never heard of Jesus Christ, the only name under heaven by which we must be saved, knowing that the majority will be lost. He brings this and eternal hell into being anyway. He says that we have free will to love or reject Him. He wants our love given freely. But the consequence for not choosing to love Him is an eternal hell. God bless.

[ShanaBrown]

Sorry . . .but the convoluted arguments and reasoning that try to give all responsibility to God for everything that occurs is just nonsense. It is not necessary to take away any capabilities from God to understand that we do control our own spiritual development. Influencing us is NOT God controlling us. There are multiple influences on us all the time. We CHOOSE what to respond to . . . not God . . . because THAT is God's will. God wants US to grow and develop the right choices because we know they are the right choices . . . NOT because we will be rewarded or punished for them. That is not adult behavior . . . that is the behavior of a pet.

We have personal wills. We are not puppets. We are able to make choices. But God's will is sovereign. His good pleasure was to reconcile all to us to Himself. He accomplishes whatever He purposes to do. One day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess/give praise/give thanks to Him. All will be subjected to Him that He may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15)


All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, "What doest thou?" (Dan 4:35)


Psalms 22:
27. All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28. For the kingdom is the LORD'S
And He rules over the nations.
29. All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive



God bless.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

I agree. Many "choose" God for fire insurance. How can this be love? God sees beginning to end. He brings the creation into existence knowing the that majority has never heard of Jesus Christ, the only name under heaven by which we must be saved, knowing that majority will be lost. He brings this and eternal hell into being anyway. He says that we have free will to love or reject Him. He wants our love given freely. But the consequence for not choosing to love Him is an eternal hell. God bless.

The consequence is for not becoming like Jesus in our heart and soul . . . not because God's ego is hurt because we did not specifically acknowledge Jesus as the model for human spiritual development. It could be argued that becoming loving and accepting like Jesus just because that is what we consider to be right is more valuable to God than doing so because we fear God's punishment or seek God's reward.

[ShanaBrown]

It could be argued that becoming loving and accepting like Jesus just because that is what we consider to be right is more valuable to God than doing so because we fear God's punishment or seek God's reward.

I agree. God bless.

[TheWordIsOne]

Originally Posted by antjraf

Can anyone argue with that stance?

He didn't create robots.
He created thinking beings with free-will.
He wants us to choose His way.
He teaches us why we should.
He doesn't force us to obey Him.
He explains the consequences of not obeying.
He knows we are sinful.
He gave us the gift of redemption.
He sacrificed His only begotton Son to save us.
He will save ALL who believe in Him.

If we knowingly and willingly choose to live by our own rules rather than His, then He doesn't interfere.

He doesn't call others to interfere with our choices on his behalf either.

We ultimately get exactly what we want.

Hell is not punishment. It is the result of the absence of God.
If you choose to be on your own, then God grants you your wish.

Is there any "religion" on earth that can compare to the fairness demonstrated by the faith professed by Jesus the Christ?

All religions pale in comparison, including the all the modern "Christian" denominations, which are more closely related to Pharisaism or Zionism, than anything taught by our Savior Christ Jesus.

Acts 10:34-43 (KJV) Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly;
Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
To him give all the prophets’ witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.


The word used here denotes the act of showing favour to one on account of rank, family, wealth, or partiality, arising from any cause. It is explained in James 2:1-4 (KJV) My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

A judge is a respecter of persons when he favours one of the parties on account of private friendship; or because he is a man of rank, influence, or power; or because he belongs to the same political party, etc. The Jews supposed that they were peculiarly favoured by God, and that salvation was not extended to other nations, and that the fact of being a Jew entitled them to this favour. Peter here says that he has learned the error of this doctrine. That a man is not to be accepted because he is a Jew, nor is he to be excluded because he is a Gentile. The barrier is broken down, the offer is made to all, and God will save all on the same principle-not by external privileges, or rank, but according to their character. The same doctrine is elsewhere explicitly stated in the New Testament

Romans 2:11 (KJV) For there is no respect of persons with God.

Eph. 6:9 (KJV) And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening:

Colossians 3:25 (KJV) knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

It is worthy of remark, further, that the most strenuous advocate for the doctrines of sovereignty and election in the New Testament-the apostle Paul-is also the one that laboured most to establish the doctrine that God was no respecter of persons; that is, that there was no difference between the Jews and Gentiles in regard to the way of salvation; that God would not save a man because he was a Jew, nor destroy a man because he was a Gentile. Yet, in regard to the whole race viewed as lying on a level, he maintained that God had a right to exercise the prerogatives of a sovereign, and to have mercy on whom he would have mercy. The doctrine may be thus stated:

(1.) The barrier, between the Jews and Gentiles was broken down.
(2.) All men thus were placed on a level-none to be saved by external privileges, none to be lost by the want of them.
(3.) All were guilty; please read Romans 1, 2, 3 and none had a claim on God.
(4.) If any were saved, it would be by God's showing mercy on such of this common mass as he chose. please read also Romans 3:22, 10:12, 2:11, Galatians 2:6; compared with Romans 9, Ephesians 1.
(*) "God is no respector of persons" and please read also Deuteronomy 10:17, 2 Chronicles 19:7, Job 34:19, Romans 2:11, Galatians 2:6, 1 Peter 1:17.


TheWordIsOne

[Towhee]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Marianinark, He will have all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. I Timothy 2:4. This is His purpose in Jesus Christ (Colossians 1:19-20. You did everything you could to influence your child's will for good. A human being can only so much. God has all power. He does the same because He loves us with agape love. He gave His only begotten Son for us. God is also perfect and He never makes mistakes. He never fails. He knows and He has fashioned all hearts. He knows what it takes to open someone's eyes to the truth. Although many people are contrary to God, the scriptures tell us that one day He will subject all to Himself that He may be all in all. This means that their rejection of Him will not exist forever. Goodness is able to overcome evil. God bless.

So....exactly what was the purpose of Jesus' suffering amd dying on the cross? And why is it said "He that believes and is Baptized will be saved and he that does not believe will be condemned" ?
In your opinoin nobody will be condemned...so you are calling this a lie????

Also, your version of God being perfect and never makes mistakes, (the last 6 bolded words which I believe are true),still does not account for the great flood, where all died except 8 souls! And for volumes of other instances where God had entire groups of people wiped out.

Gen.6.5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughs of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7 So the Lord said," I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, bothman and beast, creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

It seems your analysis of how God feels is contrary with His! The scriptures are full of instances that contradict your theory.

I have pointed this out, and I know it is falling on deaf ears. I have done my part in the matter

I think I know the group that teaches the doctrine that you subscribe to. It is wrong in more ways than that one.

[ShanaBrown]

So....exactly what was the purpose of Jesus' suffering amd dying on the cross?

Colossians 1
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven

And why is it said "He that believes and is Baptized will be saved and he that does not believe will be condemned" ?

In your opinoin nobody will be condemned...so you are calling this a lie????

I never said that no one will be condemned, Marianinark. I have always stated that I believe that many will experience hell, condemnation, exclusion.

Also, your version of God being perfect and never makes mistakes, (the last 6 bolded words which I believe are true),still does not account for the great flood, where all died except 8 souls! And for volumes of other instances where God had entire groups of people wiped out.

This doesn’t mean that God makes mistakes. If God made mistakes, He would not be perfect and we would not be able to put our complete trust in Him.

Gen.6.5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughs of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7 So the Lord said," I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, bothman and beast, creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

This is an example of God condescending to speak to us on our level. God sees beginning to end and knew what would happen when He created mankind. Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world.

Figures of Speech (http://www.gtft.org/Library/miscellaneous/FiguresOfSpeechCondescension.htm - broken link)

It seems your analysis of how God feels is contrary with His! The scriptures are full of instances that contradict your theory.

Why am I rebuked for believing that God has all power to achieve His purposes and that He will accomplish whatever He purposes to do, Marianinark? I believe that this is presented in the scriptures.


Isaiah 46
9"Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
10Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, 'My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';
11Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man of My purpose from a far country
Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass.
I have planned it, surely I will do it.


Do you believe that evil is greater than goodness, that darkness is greater than light? I don’t and I won’t apologize for it J

I have pointed this out, and I know it is falling on deaf ears. I have done my part in the matter

I think I know the group that teaches the doctrine that you subscribe to. It is wrong in more ways than that one.

?

Take care and God bless.

[antjraf]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

I agree that many like this exist today, but there are many scriptures which speak of the eventual subjection and restoration of all. All will return to Him and worship Him. Isaiah 45:22-25 speaks of all bowing before Him and swearing allegiance to Him.

Isaiah 45
22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24"They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength '
Men will come to Him,
And )all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
25"In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
Will be )justified and will glory." (NAS)

Isaiah 45:
22Turn to Me, and be saved, all ends of the earth, For I [am] God, and there is none else.
23By Myself I have sworn, Gone out from my mouth in righteousness hath a word, And it turneth not back, That to Me, bow doth every knee, every tongue swear.
24Only in Jehovah, said hath one, Have I righteousness and strength, Unto Him he cometh in, And ashamed are all those displeased with Him.
25In Jehovah are all the seed of Israel justified, And they boast themselves.' (Young’s Literal)

Swear =Shaba=to complete, to swear, to confirm with an oath, to swear to, to pledge allegiance to God through an oath, to bind by an oath; Whether in religious or secular contexts, swearing was the giving of one’s unbreakable word that he would faithfully perform a promised deed or that he would not harm his partner. (Hebrew/Greek word studies)




They are not rejecting Him if they are worshipping Him and swearing allegiance to Him. This bowing to Him will be an act of worship. Kampto the NT word as used in Philippians 2 and Romans 14 means the bowing of the knees in religious veneration, worship. They will not be rejecting Him, then.

Psalms 22:
27. All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28. For the kingdom is the LORD'S
And He rules over the nations.
29. All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive




God bless.

Let's examine the scriptures

Isaiah 45:22 Turn ye to me, and ye shall be saved, ye that [come] from the end of the earth: I am God, and there is none other.
45:23 By myself I swear, righteousness shall surely proceed out of my mouth; my words shall not be frustrated; that to me every knee shall bend, and every tongue shall swear by God,
45:24 saying, Righteousness and glory shall come to him: and all that remove them from their borders shall be ashamed.

Swear Strong's H7650 - shaba`
1) to swear, adjure
a) (Qal) sworn (participle)
b) (Niphal)
1) to swear, take an oath
2) to swear (of Jehovah by Himself)
3) to curse
c) (Hiphil)
1) to cause to take an oath
2) to adjure

adjure
Verb[-juring, -jured]
1. to command someone to do something
2. to appeal earnestly to someone

What is God commanding, that all acknowledge Him and His truth, or that all love and obey Him?



Isaiah 45:25 By the Lord shall they be justified, and in God shall all the seed of the children of Israel be glorified.


Seed Strong's H2233 - zera`

1) seed, sowing, offspring
a) a sowing
b) seed
c) semen virile
d) offspring, descendants, posterity, children
e) of moral quality
1) a practitioner of righteousness (fig.)
f) sowing time (by meton)

Could seed mean "a practitioner of rightousness"?
If it does then the passage would read...

By the Lord shall they be justified, and in God shall all the practitioners of rightousness of the children of Israel be glorified.

[ShanaBrown]

Let's examine the scriptures

Isaiah 45:22 Turn ye to me, and ye shall be saved, ye that [come] from the end of the earth: I am God, and there is none other.
45:23 By myself I swear, righteousness shall surely proceed out of my mouth; my words shall not be frustrated; that to me every knee shall bend, and every tongue shall swear by God,
45:24 saying, Righteousness and glory shall come to him: and all that remove them from their borders shall be ashamed.

Swear Strong's H7650 - shaba`
1) to swear, adjure
a) (Qal) sworn (participle)
b) (Niphal)
1) to swear, take an oath
2) to swear (of Jehovah by Himself)
3) to curse
c) (Hiphil)
1) to cause to take an oath
2) to adjure

adjure
Verb[-juring, -jured]
1. to command someone to do something
2. to appeal earnestly to someone

What is God commanding, that all acknowledge Him and His truth, or that all love and obey Him?

I have:


Isaiah 45
22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24"They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength '
Men will come to Him,
And )all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
25"In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
Will be )justified and will glory." (NAS)

Isaiah 45:
22Turn to Me, and be saved, all ends of the earth, For I [am] God, and there is none else.
23By Myself I have sworn, Gone out from my mouth in righteousness hath a word, And it turneth not back, That to Me, bow doth every knee, every tongue swear.
24Only in Jehovah, said hath one, Have I righteousness and strength, Unto Him he cometh in, And ashamed are all those displeased with Him.
25In Jehovah are all the seed of Israel justified, And they boast themselves.' (Young’s Literal)

This is the NAS and Young's Literal. I will also share other translations.

Swear =Shaba=to complete, to swear, to confirm with an oath, to swear to, to pledge allegiance to God through an oath, to bind by an oath; Whether in religious or secular contexts, swearing was the giving of one’s unbreakable word that he would faithfully perform a promised deed or that he would not harm his partner. (Hebrew/Greek word studies)

What this says to me is that God has taken an oath, swears that to Him every knee will bow before Him, and that every man will swear, take an oath, swear allegiance to Him, come to Him, saying that righteousness and strength are found in the Lord. There will be no exception so this tells me that no one will be able to resist this. When taking this along with related passages in the NT this says to me that all will eventually confess, give praise to, worship, honor, glorify the Lord.

Isaiah 45:25 By the Lord shall they be justified, and in God shall all the seed of the children of Israel be glorified.


Seed Strong's H2233 - zera`

1) seed, sowing, offspring
a) a sowing
b) seed
c) semen virile
d) offspring, descendants, posterity, children
e) of moral quality
1) a practitioner of righteousness (fig.)
f) sowing time (by meton)

Could seed mean "a practitioner of rightousness"?
If it does then the passage would read...

By the Lord shall they be justified, and in God shall all the practitioners of rightousness of the children of Israel be glorified.

It could be or it could refer to the offspring, descendants of Israel. It was God's good pleasure to reconcile all people through Jesus Christ. The people of God are to be a blessing to all (Genesis 28:14) Consider Romans 8 which speaks about all of creation being delivered and changed into the glorious freedom of the children of God. And when God becomes all in all, (1 Corinthians 15) all will be practioners of righteousness. I appreciate your taking the time to study this out and thank you for sharing. God bless.