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Old 07-30-2009, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Idaho
284 posts, read 248,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
NO. since 1500 years, since emperor Justinian made it a dogma about 545 AD, Gregory of Nissa, e.g. was an universalist.



yes, and you know what Jesus called them; Jesus never rebuked the Saducces in the way He rebuked the Pharisees



you should actually be Catholic then, because it was exactly what the reformators did, to say the church was mistaken...
You mean these saduccees?

27There came to him(B) some Sadducees,(C) those who deny that there is a resurrection, 28and they asked him a question, saying, "Teacher, Moses wrote for us(D) that if a manís brother dies, having a wife but no children, the man must take the widow and raise up offspring for his brother.

the state beliefs of the Jewish people is at the time of Jesus is hardly a prime era to refer to. They had alot of missunderstandings of the Torah and by that time the hutzpa of the Talmud was a little meshegoss!
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 11,772,750 times
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i wrote FOR SALVATION (began 17century)

btw st augustine was/is not Jewish

Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
thats not true, St. Augustine e.g. laments in his Enchiridion 112 that very many do not believe in everlasting punishment.

please if you claim historic things, check if they are right, such discussion isn't a profit for anybody.

ps: if what you're saying is true, why was universalism then condemned in the 6th century when it began in the 17th century?
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 11,772,750 times
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The bible teaches that the Oracles of God were given to the Jews

The Early Church had NO MISUNDERSTANDING of the Word of God

Please do not confuse or intermix denominations/sects

Jews include those who believe in Jesus and those that do not believe in Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thirdparty View Post
You mean these saduccees?

27There came to him(B) some Sadducees,(C) those who deny that there is a resurrection, 28and they asked him a question, saying, "Teacher, Moses wrote for us(D) that if a manís brother dies, having a wife but no children, the man must take the widow and raise up offspring for his brother.

the state beliefs of the Jewish people is at the time of Jesus is hardly a prime era to refer to. They had alot of missunderstandings of the Torah and by that time the hutzpa of the Talmud was a little meshegoss!
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Idaho
284 posts, read 248,571 times
Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
NO. since 1500 years, since emperor Justinian made it a dogma about 545 AD, Gregory of Nissa, e.g. was an universalist.



yes, and you know what Jesus called them; Jesus never rebuked the Saducces in the way He rebuked the Pharisees



you should actually be Catholic then, because it was exactly what the reformators did, to say the church was mistaken...
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
thats not true, St. Augustine e.g. laments in his Enchiridion 112 that very many do not believe in everlasting punishment.

please if you claim historic things, check if they are right, such discussion isn't a profit for anybody.

ps: if what you're saying is true, why was universalism then condemned in the 6th century when it began in the 17th century?

Modern universalists claim that universalism was the primary doctrine of the church until it was forcibly stamped out by the Catholic Church in the sixth century. Four of the six theological schools of thought in ancient Christendom supported universalism, and only one supported eternal damnation. Additionally, theological thought appears more varied before the strong influence of Augustine, who forcefully denied universal salvation.[4] Some claim Augustine's rejection of the doctrine was an unwarranted side-effect of Platonist pagan philosophy, rather than a conclusion based on his study of the Scriptures.

Are you sure you meant Augustine? And the idea that universal reconciliation was taught by the Apostals or even the earliest church fathers is the same contortion of writings that implies that is what the bible teaches. There are only a small handful of 1st and 2nd century fathers that say any direct belief in UR most illued to the idea but for the most part it is the same textual extrapulations as used on the biblical text.
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:34 PM
 
1,143 posts, read 944,662 times
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Quote:
The bible teaches that the Oracles of God were given to the Jews
the doctrine of endless hell did not prevail in Judaism and I don't know if it was ever the view of a significant majority, I think annihilationism is/was the most common view among Jews (e.g. Maimonides, a famous Jewish philosopher of the middle ages)

Mercy And Judgment by Canon F.W. Farrar
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 11,772,750 times
Reputation: 975
you really pick stuff out of nothing and like to make things up!

like I wrote earlier....the Pharisaic teachings were the dominant teachings in the days of Jesus

Pharisees believed in the afterlife

Paul was a Pharisee ...and Paul also wrote most of the NT

The word Christian was a word ADOPTED by Gentiles because the first few thousands of people who were saved were ALL JEWISH.

Gentiles began to bring their pagan ways into the Christianity religion and still continues today. This is why you see Paul writing many letters about Gentiles and their idolatry/pagan worship.

Jews already had the truth, and were waiting for the Messiah
Gentiles had no truth, and were not expecting any Messiah

Gentiles had to be taught everything because they weren't "in the loop"

Many gentiles broke off the Early church to form their own, but what people forget is that the ORACLES OF GOD ARE GIVEN TO THE JEWS not the gentiles.

It's like a family of farmers who have been farmers for many generations have someone new (noobie) trying to tell them how to farm.

Hell has been taught for many generations, and a lot longer than those who oppose it


Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
the doctrine of endless hell did not prevail in Judaism and I don't know if it was ever the view of a significant majority, I think annihilationism is/was the most common view among Jews (e.g. Maimonides, a famous Jewish philosopher of the middle ages)

Mercy And Judgment by Canon F.W. Farrar
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:43 PM
 
Location: NC
11,653 posts, read 9,136,471 times
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We don't know how many of the early church fathers/leaders believed in universal restoration of all. Some preached eternal hell publicly yet held to universal salvation. God bless.
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 11,772,750 times
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Hell was created for the devil and his angels but people will also join him


Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

it's obvious that God isn't speaking to the devil or his angels...
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:45 PM
 
Location: Idaho
284 posts, read 248,571 times
Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
The bible teaches that the Oracles of God were given to the Jews

The Early Church had NO MISUNDERSTANDING of the Word of God

Please do not confuse or intermix denominations/sects

Jews include those who believe in Jesus and those that do not believe in Jesus
Well, if you think that early Church had no misunderstanding you and Paul wouldn't have agreed, most of his apistols to the churchs were to correct an idea of error that was circulating gnostics and the like. And trust me I know who Jews are which you may not namely the term Jew was used firstly to discribe the Isrealites that chose to stay in Babylon.
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:48 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 11,772,750 times
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Apostles were appointed by Jesus, and those Apostles did not teach anything irregular.

What you're referring to are some Jews who persuaded the circumcision which I dont see any reference that the Apostles (early church) taught.

you can call yourself an Apostle but you will be by your own authority.
Just like universalism who broke off from the church to teach their own doctrine



Quote:
Originally Posted by Thirdparty View Post
Well, if you think that early Church had no misunderstanding you and Paul wouldn't have agreed, most of his apistols to the churchs were to correct an idea of error that was circulating gnostics and the like. And trust me I know who Jews are which you may not namely the term Jew was used firstly to discribe the Isrealites that chose to stay in Babylon.

Last edited by renriq02; 07-30-2009 at 03:02 PM..
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