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Hi all fellow believers who believe in absolute free will, how do you understand this passage as it relates to this subject? I am interested mostly in the responses of those believers who accept this as inspired scripture.
Romans 9
9for the word of promise [is] this; `According to this time I will come, and there shall be to Sarah a son.'
10And not only [so], but also Rebecca, having conceived by one -- Isaac our father --
11(for they being not yet born, neither having done anything good or evil, that the purpose of God, according to choice, might remain; not of works, but of Him who is calling,) it was said to her --
12`The greater shall serve the less;'
13according as it hath been written, `Jacob I did love, and Esau I did hate.'
14What, then, shall we say? unrighteousness [is] with God? let it not be!
15for to Moses He saith, `I will do kindness to whom I do kindness, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion;'
16so, then -- not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness:
17for the Writing saith to Pharaoh -- `For this very thing I did raise thee up, that I might shew in thee My power, and that My name might be declared in all the land;'
18so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.
19Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?'
20nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form [it], Why me didst thou make thus? 21hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?
Is there anyway that the greater would not serve the less? Who made this choice? When was the choice made? Who raised up Pharoah? Why was Pharoah raised up? Who does kindness and who hardens? Who is able to resist God's intention? Who is described as the Potter? Who is the one being formed? Thanks and God bless.
All who are reconciled will come willingly. Even as we come willingly, it is the result of God's work in our lives and in our hearts. This is where we seem to disagree. I believe that you believe that we are coming to Him as the result of our own efforts, our own self direction, of what you believe to be our own free will.
Our differences seem to stem from misunderstanding what "influence" is versus "control." EVERYTHING in the universe is God . . . but we distinguish volition from other things not the direct result of conscious decision. We would not consider the action of our digestive system and bowels as part of our will . . . would we?
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I believe that all originates from God, that our coming to Him is the direct result of His presence and operation in the creation, in our lives, in our hearts.
Our consciousnesses . . . as cells of God consciousness are, of course, the direct result of God's presence and operation in the creation. But our volition has been deemed by God to be essential to the correct development of our cellular consciousness . . . because as part of God it must become compatible with the self-direction that is God.
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Even our ablilty to temporarily reject Him, comes from Him. From Him, through Him and to Him are all things. Thanks and God bless.
Of course . . . our ability to reject is essential to volitional choice and self-direction (guided and influenced by the holy spirit . . . NOT just our own efforts) . . . but it is still (and MUST BE) self-directed or our souls would not be compatible with God's.
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown All who are reconciled will come willingly. Even as we come willingly, it is the result of God's work in our lives and in our hearts. This is where we seem to disagree. I believe that you believe that we are coming to Him as the result of our own efforts, our own self direction, of what you believe to be our own free will.
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Our differences seem to stem from misunderstanding what "influence" is versus "control." EVERYTHING in the universe is God . . . but we distinguish volition from other things not the direct result of conscious decision. We would not consider the action of our digestive system and bowels as part of our will . . . would we?
I believe that God is in control of all things and that He sovereignly operates in the creation, that all things are under His sovereign control and operation.
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I believe that all originates from God, that our coming to Him is the direct result of His presence and operation in the creation, in our lives, in our hearts.
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Our consciousnesses . . . as cells of God consciousness are, of course, the direct result of God's presence and operation in the creation. But our volition has been deemed by God to be essential to the correct development of our cellular consciousness . . . because as part of God it must become compatible with the self-direction that is God.
I believe that God operates all things according to the counsel of His will including our cellular consciouness and self direction.
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Even our ablilty to temporarily reject Him, comes from Him. From Him, through Him and to Him are all things. Thanks and God bless.
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Of course . . . our ability to reject is essential to volitional choice and self-direction (guided and influenced by the holy spirit . . . NOT just our own efforts) . . . but it is still (and MUST BE) self-directed or our souls would not be compatible with God's.
What do you mean that our souls are compatible to God's, Mystic? We are not on the same level as God and we are not God. I believe that God is the only sovereign will and that all things return to Him, the originator of all things. If the Holy Spirit guides and influences our souls, then how do we have absolute free will? It is guiding and influencing what you say is our self direction. How can our souls be absolutely self directed if He works all things according to the counsel of His own will? God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-28-2008 at 12:04 PM..
The belief in absolute free will (to me) as this relates to our relationship with God seems to put man on the same level as God suggesting that man's will is on the same level as God's. Are we are saying to the Creator that there is no way that He can have His way with us without our permission? Who then is subservient, us or the Creator? Are we saying that is our decision and our decison to come to Him alone? If we come to Him it will be because we have chosen to come to Him and not because His influence, power, work. This is elevating ourselves above Him, to me, but the thing is - every knee will be bowing before Him. He will not be bowing before us saying, "Your will be done." We are the creature and He is the Creator and He has the right to have His will done in our lives. We are His workmanship as is all of creation. God bless.
What do you mean that our souls are compatible to God's, Mystic? I believe that God is the only sovereign will and that all things return to Him, the originator of all things. If the Holy Spirit guides and influences our souls, then how do we have absolute free will? How can our souls be absolutely self directed if He works all things according to the counsel of His own will? God bless.
I mean they MUST WILLINGLY BECOME compatible with God . . . or they cannot fulfill their destiny to be in God's presence . . . not that they already ARE. You continue to misunderstand the full implication of the word WILLINGLY . . . it means according to ONE'S WILL . . . not God's. You seem to believe that somehow this concept removes sovereignty from God . . . on the contrary . . . it is what God WILLS for us.
You also misunderstand what a robot or slave is . . . it LACKS the absolute free will to choose anything. God has no interest in our being robots or slaves. As you clearly state . . . many believers are willing to blame God for evil . . . I do not. WE and our flaws are the source of the evil that proceeds from the acts of humans, not God. Seeking to absolve us from responsibility for it by blaming our loving God approaches heresy, IMO. God bless.
I mean they MUST WILLINGLY BECOME compatible with God . . . or they cannot fulfill their destiny to be in God's presence . . . not that they already ARE. You continue to misunderstand the full implication of the word WILLINGLY . . . it means according to ONE'S WILL . . . not God's. You seem to believe that somehow this concept removes sovereignty from God . . . on the contrary . . . it is what God WILLS for us.
God wills for all to reconciled to Him, Mystic. One's will is to be made compatible with God's will. They will willingly become compatible with God's will because of His influence. It will be according to their will which will be compatible with God's will because of the effect of His will on their wills. (Now that's a tongue twister) He works through His Spirit, His word, through circumstances in our lives like sickness, tragedies, difficulties, through other people, even nature, ect. He works all things according to the counsel of His will, not our wills. Do you not believe that a parent seeks to influence the will of his or her child? Do they do this? Why would be wrong for God to do this? Even the will of the Lord Jesus had to be made compatible with the Father's will. He understood that the Father's will had to be done and He went to the cross willingly because He always submitted to the Father's will. He prayed to the Father for strength.
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You also misunderstand what a robot or slave is . . . it LACKS the absolute free will to choose anything. God has no interest in our being robots or slaves. As you clearly state . . . many believers are willing to blame God for evil . . . I do not. WE and our flaws are the source of the evil that proceeds from the acts of humans, not God. Seeking to absolve us from responsibility for it by blaming our loving God approaches heresy, IMO. God bless
I believe that if we are slaves for God, we then have true freedom. We are not truly free outside of our Maker. Rejecting God is not an act of free will. It is an act of one who is enslaved to sin. And I also believe that all is out of God, including evil, but that it is for a higher purpose. That all is out of God, including evil does not suggest that God is evil. It is a temporary tool that He uses in bringing about His purposes, which are good. For from Him, through Him, and to Him are all things (Romans 11:36) God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-28-2008 at 12:38 PM..
God wills for all to reconciled to Him, Mystic. One's will is to be made compatible with God's will. They will willingly become compatible with God's will because of His influence. It will be according to their will which will be compatible with God's will because of the effect of His will on their wills. (Now that's a tongue twister)
It is more than a tongue twister . . . it is an oxymoron. There MUST be a WILL resident in us . . . or it cannot even exist to be reconciled or compatible to God's. Will belongs to the one who possesses it . . or it doesn't exist . . . it is a sham.
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He works through His Spirit, His word, through circumstances in our lives like sickness, tragedies, difficulties, through other people, even nature, ect. He works all things according to the counsel of His will, not our wills. Do you not believe that a parent seeks to influence the will of his or her child? Do they do this? Why would be wrong for God to do this?
Influences inform the WILL of humans . . . they do NOT control the outcomes.
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Even the will of the Lord Jesus had to be made compatible with the Father's will. He understood that the Father's will had to be done and He went to the cross willingly because He always submitted to the Father's will. He prayed to the Father for strength.
Because the will of Jesus WAS compatible with God's . . . he went to the cross willingly because he knew it was necessary . . . not because he was submitting to the Father's will. He prayed for strength because his human nature knew what a terrible fate he would have to endure and he wanted to be sure it was absolutely necessary and unavoidable.
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I believe that if we are slaves for God, we then have true freedom. We are not truly free outside of our Maker. Rejecting God is not an act of free will. It is an act of one who is enslaved to sin.
Enslavement is enslavement . . . whether to God or sin or anything else. Freedom is the absence of enslavement or compulsion . . . leaving only choice.
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And I also believe that all is out of God, including evil, but that it is for a higher purpose. That all is out of God, including evil does not suggest that God is evil. It is a temporary tool that He uses in bringing about His purposes, which are good. For from Him, through Him, and to Him are all things (Romans 11:36) God bless.
You can believe and reconcile yourself to an evil-doing God, Shana . . . for whatever reasons. I will NOT. Jesus would NOT do evil for ANY PURPOSE . . . so God would not, IMO. God bless.
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Originally Posted by ShanaBrown God wills for all to reconciled to Him, Mystic. One's will is to be made compatible with God's will. They will willingly become compatible with God's will because of His influence. It will be according to their will which will be compatible with God's will because of the effect of His will on their wills. (Now that's a tongue twister)
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It is more than a tongue twister . . . it is an oxymoron. There MUST be a WILL resident in us . . . or it cannot even exist to be reconciled or compatible to God's. Will belongs to the one who possesses it . . or it doesn't exist . . . it is a sham.
As I have shared Mystic, I believe that we have personal wills, self wills but these wills limited and they are influenced by God who ultimately owns all things, including our wills.
Quote: He works through His Spirit, His word, through circumstances in our lives like sickness, tragedies, difficulties, through other people, even nature, ect. He works all things according to the counsel of His will, not our wills. Do you not believe that a parent seeks to influence the will of his or her child? Do they do this? Why would be wrong for God to do this?
[quote] Influences inform the WILL of humans . . . they do NOT control the outcomes. [/quote]
I believe that God works all things according to the counsel of His own will (Ephesians 1) It was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself. Who is doing the reconciling to Himself? If He will subject all, for example, His will is determining the outcome.
Quote: Even the will of the Lord Jesus had to be made compatible with the Father's will. He understood that the Father's will had to be done and He went to the cross willingly because He always submitted to the Father's will. He prayed to the Father for strength.
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Because the will of Jesus WAS compatible with God's . . . he went to the cross willingly because he knew it was necessary . . . not because he was submitting to the Father's will. He prayed for strength because his human nature knew what a terrible fate he would have to endure and he wanted to be sure it was absolutely necessary and unavoidable.
Jesus learned obedience and submitted His will to the Father. He prayed, "Father not my will, but Your will be done." (Mark 14)
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Quote: I believe that if we are slaves for God, we then have true freedom. We are not truly free outside of our Maker. Rejecting God is not an act of free will. It is an act of one who is enslaved to sin.
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Enslavement is enslavement . . . whether to God or sin or anything else. Freedom is the absence of enslavement or compulsion . . . leaving only choice.
True freedom is only found in the will of God for us and we can only find true freedom when we are set free by God from the enslavement to sin. Only then are we free to become what God intends for us to become and we can only be our true selves when we are restored to God.
Quote: And I also believe that all is out of God, including evil, but that it is for a higher purpose. That all is out of God, including evil does not suggest that God is evil. It is a temporary tool that He uses in bringing about His purposes, which are good. For from Him, through Him, and to Him are all things (Romans 11:36) God bless.
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You can believe and reconcile yourself to an evil-doing God, Shana . . . for whatever reasons. I will NOT. Jesus would NOT do evil for ANY PURPOSE . . . so God would not, IMO. God bless.
I believe that all is out of God (Romans 11:36) and as I have shared, that all comes out of God including evil, does not mean that God is evil. Evil is a tool that God uses to bring about His purposes. We could not know and really understand what goodness, light, and righteousness are without the contrast. An author who writes a book may include elements of evil in the storyline, for his or her purposes, but this does not mean the the author hiimself or herself is evil in anyway. God bless.
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Evil is a means to a further end, the dark background which God is using for the display of Himself..through evil, God is working out good, triumphing over evil with good, and better than that, at last He will put good in the place of evil. That which once was shall cease to be: having accomplished its mission, it shall pass away. "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He should destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8). There an be only one First Cause, and He must be answerable for what He creates. God is not afraid to take the responsibility. "All things are of God." "We need not be afraid of such an absolute power lodged in the hands of a sovereign God, when we remember that His sovereignty is under the direction and control of His love. A God Who was willing to give His Son to die for the sinful race need not be feared, but ought to be trusted. The one who knows God can accept evil as well as good as coming from Him, and as we connect it with God's purpose and love.. Both good and evil are in the hands of God, and both are working out the blessing of man, and will ultimately secure the glory of God. We can in everything give thanks (cp Eph.5:20). "Shall we receive good at the hands of the Lord and shall we not receive evil?" asks Job.
As I have shared Mystic, I believe that we have personal wills, self wills but these wills limited and they are influenced by God who ultimately owns all things, including our wills.
Sorry . . . you can keep asserting this non-Will form of Will . . . but it cannot exist. Either we have Will because God wills it so . . . or we do not because God wants to control our choices. Your semi-Will nonsense is just that,IMO . . . it is no will at all since ultimately God decides in your illogical view.
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Influences inform the WILL of humans . . . they do NOT control the outcomes.[/quote] I believe that God works all things according to the counsel of His own will (Ephesians 1)
You incorrectly merge the ubiquity of God with control . . . they are separate issues entirely. When God wills that we have our OWN WILL . . . he cedes control over our actions on purpose . . . so we will be free to develop our own understanding of good and evil and CHOOSE good. God does not simply FOOL us into thinking we can choose . . . God gives us REAL choice and does not stop urging us or influencing us . . . but that is NOT control.
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Jesus learned obedience and submitted His will to the Father. He prayed, "Father not my will, but Your will be done."
Jesus didn't learn obedience to himself!?? Jesus tamed his human nature and applied God's understanding to control it because he knew WHY it was necessary . . . it was not blind obedience to authority (his own??).
(God please help to move these tenacious souls beyond their human frailties to a mature understanding of the role of obedience in the early stages of human spiritual development and its inappropriateness after Jesus.)
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True freedom is only found in the will of God for us and we can only find true freedom when we are set free by God from the enslavement to sin. Only then are we free to become what God intends for us to become and we can only be our true selves when we are restored to God.
So close and yet so far . . . IF GOD CONTROLS US we cannot BE our true selves . . . only "controlled selves." God sets us free not only from sin but from ANY control.
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I believe that all is out of God (Romans 11:36) and as I have shared, that all comes out of God including evil, does not mean that God is evil. Evil is a tool that God uses to bring about His purposes. We could not know and really understand what goodness, light, and righteousness are without the contrast. An author who writes a book may include elements of evil in the storyline, for his or her purposes, but this does not mean the the author hiimself or herself is evil in anyway. God bless.
Any God that would use the Holocaust as a "tool" for ANY purpose is no God of mine!God bless.
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We are the creature and He is the Creator and He has the right to have His will done in our lives. We are His workmanship as is all of creation. God bless.
...Love
