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I think that passage means that it is not a war between two countries but the whole world going to war in World War I or World War II, Israel could be a foundation of the four a major war. In all countries are involved.
Right....just like my Yellowstone thread, wars and rumors of wars (globally) are a SYMPTOM, not one single sign of the end. However, it is my belief as well as most evangelicals/fundamentals that this war between Israel and Palestine is setting the stage for World War III. It has caused massive and angry protests by European and American Arabs, which will only further escalate because Israel is not going to back down until they take out enough of the Hamas.
That will put pressure on our new President from world leaders to withdraw our support, and all nations are going to come against Israel. This will not only set the stage for World War III, but it sets the stage for one world government.
America's focus will be on our own problems within, such as the economy, housing, job loss, homelessness, healthcare, increase in crime, etc. etc.......which will leave the distracted homeland vulnerable and open for attack. Iran will be ready to strike with nuclear weapons because Russia has made sure of that, and by the end of January it will be possible.
America will be so self-involved internally and Israel will be so consumed with defending themselves without help that there will be a simultaneous attack on Israel and America. I look for God to supernaturally protect Israel but they will be weakened and become defenseless, but God help America. With Israel weakened and America a 3rd world country, in comes the one world order.
Just my take on it.
Oh and somewhere in this scenario the Rapture happens.
[quote=Preterist;6870409]Greetings, Robin. Thank you for your response.
The context of Matthew 10 makes your understanding doubtful. While Jesus was still with His disciples, they did not suffer the things He predicted would happen to them. For instance, they were not delivered "up to the councils" (vs. 17) and scourged in the synagogues until after the crucifixion. The same is true of their being "brought before governors and kings" for His sake (vs. 18). Also, the Spirit that is mentioned in verse 20 was not imparted to them until Pentecost. They were also not "hated of all men" for His name's sake until some time after the crucifixion. It was, therefore, after that time, during the time of the writings of the events of the Book of Acts and the epistles that they were persecuted and had to flee from one city to another (vss. 21-23). In that context and in that time frame, Jesus said "YOU shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of Man be come." This is the same coming of Matthew 16:28; 24:34 and 26:64![quote]
I agree, but these things are happening still today in parts of the world, so how would you explain the 7 years of tribulation since it has been almost 2 millenium.
Quote:
The "millennium" is only mentioned in the book of Revelation. I have demonstrated before that the book itself clearly defines the time frame. John was shown those things which were in his day to "shortly" take place. He was told by the angel (unlike Daniel in chapter 12) to NOT seal up the words of the prophecy because the time was "near" for fulfillment. The thousand years, like many large rounded numbers in the Bible, speaks of completeness, or eternality or entirety. For example, God does not own only the cattle on a thousand hills (Psalm 50:10)--He owns all the cattle on all the hills. When the Scriptures speak of keeping His commandments "to a thousand generations" (Deu. 7:9), it is not confined to just a thousand generations. The millennium speaks of His kingdom which is not of this world--a kingdom in which there is no death, no sorrow, and no pain and the lion lies down with the lamb and Jesus is the light of it.
I understand the limits of such numerical allegories, but isnt it promised that he will bring His kingdom to this world. and not just the next?
Quote:
There are varying opinions even among preterists as to the identity of the abomination of desolation. More is given in Luke's Gospel (Lk. 21) in which Jesus speaks of armies surrounding Jerusalem. One thing is perfectly clear, however. Jesus told His disciples that they would see it--they not we!
But what of Deuteronomy 30, which we all have ignored for the most part.
Quote:
The prophetic, apocalyptic and figurative language of Matthew 24:29-31 would have been easily recognized by His disciples. As Jews familiar with the OT Scriptures, they would have understood this as judgment language much the same as that used by Isaiah and Ezekiel. God's judgment upon Babylon is described as the stars of heaven and the constellations not giving their light, the sun being darkened, and the moon not causing its light to shine (Isa. 13:10). The heavens are said to be shaken and the earth moved out of her place "in the wrath of the Lord of hosts" (13:13). God used the Medes to fulfill this prophecy. One other example (and there are more) is God's "coming" in judgment against Edom. It is described as a time when "all the host of heaven" were dissolved and the "heavens" were "rolled up as a scroll" and "all their host" fell down (Isa. 34:4ff). The mountains were described as being melted with the blood of the slain (vs. 3). The Lord's sword is said to be "filled with blood" (vs. 5). These upheavals in the heavens and on the earth were not intended to be taken literally in the OT writings. Nor should they be in the New.
But what if they were?
Quote:
God often "came" in judgment against nations through the instrumentality of other nations. The same is true of Jesus' "coming" in the NT. He clearly predicted this coming against the reprobate, adulterous, idolatrous, murderous Jews of His day. Their temple and their city would be destroyed because they had been found guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Matthew 23--see the "woes"). Jesus used the Roman armies to "come" in judgment against first-century Israel in A. D. 70.
But what of Deateronomy 30?
Quote:
You did not address the "yous" of Matthew 24. Jesus was talking to those very disciples with Him about things that were to happen to them was He not? That is the clear sense of the passage! They would hear of wars and rumors of wars; they would be persecuted and hated and killed. They would see earthquakes and famines and pestilences. They would see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. They were forewarned by Jesus ("See, I have told YOU beforehand"). They were not to be deceived by false prophets and Christs. They were to see the signs of His "coming" as easily as they saw the signs of the coming of summer. Luke records Jesus as telling them, when they saw the signs, to look up because their salvation drew near. All the things Jesus spoke to them would happen in their generation. That is the context.
What if He was speaking to believers as a whole? We do know that the scriptures are relevant to every generation.
Quote:
Respectfully, Robin, we do need to answer the critics. The reason many do not is because they cannot. When many in the Church disallow the clear meaning of the time indicators spoken by Jesus and His apostles, there is no defense. There is no satisfaction in dual fulfillment and postponement theories. Simply because unbelievers are spiritually blinded does not mean that they cannot glean truths from the Scriptures. They clearly see that Jesus and the apostles spoke of a first-century return. If unbelievers can see that, why does not the Church at large? We must answer them when they accuse our Lord of untruths or errors and charge His apostles with misinformation. The only response that stops them in their tracks is acknowledging that Jesus returned to that generation just as He promised He would.
I know, I go to another site of multiple faiths and have to answer them all the time, and believe me they are blind to the simplest of things. They also point out alot how no two Christians agree on everything and of course there are those who claim to be Christians that dont seem much like Christians. I just cannot agree with the second coming being fulfilled in the first century. Sorry.
Quote:
I do not agree with your assessment that the apostles misunderstood. Once the Church makes any type of admission of that nature, all the truths of the Bible and Christianity become fair game. If the apostles were wrong about His return, what else were they wrong about? Salvation? The nature of man? The nature of God? The nature of sin? Where do we draw the line? They were not mistaken. They understood very well and recorded the truths they received from the Lord and the Holy Spirit. Jesus told them that He was "returning" in their lifetime and He did.
In Christ, Preterist
Yeah I know, but it is possible that many of the first century believers misunderstood just as we do today.
I couldn't care less, if you want it then it's yours. But you may have to fight the other milliions of people left behind for it. Oh, and make quick enjoyment of it cause in 7 years you'll have nothing except singed hair, fire and brimstone. Quite the trade off for some earthly possessions.
I always find it fasinating how the Christians can't wait for the non christians to suffer in their made up hell, especially the fundamentalists. I can imagine that they are the ones buying up guns so they can kill the non christians at armeggedon just like what happens in the book they read, Left Behind. Whatever happened to christian love?
In 7 years will we all be here, and the Christians will be saying, "In 7 years the time will come." And yet you all have been putting down the JWs for their prophesies.
I always find it fasinating how the Christians can't wait for the non christians to suffer in their made up hell, especially the fundamentalists. I can imagine that they are the ones buying up guns so they can kill the non christians at armeggedon just like what happens in the book they read, Left Behind. Whatever happened to christian love?
In 7 years will we all be here, and the Christians will be saying, "In 7 years the time will come." And yet you all have been putting down the JWs for their prophesies.
You've got it ALL wrong. Christians DO NOT want anyone to suffer, no matter what they believe or don't believe.
We are told in the Bible to warn, and part of that warning is to be completely truthful about what the Bible says. It benefits no one to lie to them or sugar coat it by telling them all will be reconciled to God eventually no matter what they believe or do. Not only does it NOT benefit them, but the lies will send them to hell for eternity. That is the most dangerous false belief there is, because it gives unbelievers the false hope that they are safe from hell no matter what they do in this life.
If you can't see that what we fundamentalist Christians are trying to tell you is with the utmost love and concern, then the devil has you by the *****. It doesn't matter whether you like the presentation or my particular way of presenting it, but the truth is the truth and there's not a whole lot of that being told in these last days. You need to worry about yourself and getting right with God, and stop worrying about "oooh, I'm so offended" and criticizing and judging others for speaking the truth of God's Word. There is a way more pressing matter to be concerned about.......THE END OF DAYS AND THE COMING OF JESUS CHRIST. Buck up and spread the gospel.
Dotl is checking out for today. God spoke to me (no, not audibly) but nonetheless quite clearly that I need to go somewhere today. If you want to slam me, make fun of me or argue with me it will have to wait til later.
Dotl is checking out for today. God spoke to me (no, not audibly) but nonetheless quite clearly that I need to go somewhere today. If you want to slam me, make fun of me or argue with me it will have to wait til later.
You are going where He is leading...no one should slam you. Go with God, DotL...I'm going to pray for your time today.
Dotl is checking out for today. God spoke to me (no, not audibly) but nonetheless quite clearly that I need to go somewhere today. If you want to slam me, make fun of me or argue with me it will have to wait til later.
Go with God my friend.
Now on to another aspect of the discussion.
Thanks to another on this thread I have been reading and trying to relate Deuteronomy 30, which has me believing even stronger in the soon coming of the Lord. This has led me to Ezekiel 37 and the dry bone vision. I am sorry but I cannot reconcile these chapters with a first century second coming of Jesus but I can reconcile them with Matt 24 and the olive tree or Luke 21 and all trees. It makes a clearer picture in my mind of how God scattered His people to the four winds and will regather tham from those very same areas. The completion of the scattering was 70AD and not since the Exodus has there been a regathering even similar to the one we have been witnessing since the reformation of Israel as a nation. What many are not realizing is that Israel has mixed with just about every race and nationality just as God promised to Abraham that his seed would be a blessing to the world. I believe this was both literal and spiritual. The time from Christ to the present has been called the time of the Gentiles and it has been full of tribulation, but nothing like the time of Noah until now. Look throughout the past 2 millenium we have experienced some great up and some great down and Satan has been on our cases the whole time, but the Holy Spirit has protected us and aided us thru these times lessening satans influence. Ever since 1948 things have gotten more extreme than ever before. We currently have more religions than at any other time in history. Society is calling what is good( morality) bad and what is bad ( immorality) good. Science and technology is at an all time high which can be considered a good thing, dont get me wrong. Abortion, divorce, sexual immorality, murder, theft and all sorts of other immoral behavior is at and all time high and that is bad. Terrorism has taken gorilla warfare to immoral heights and is even being given legitimate status in the world where it has never been legitimate. Dont get me wrong gorilla tactics have always been an acceptable warfare within legitimate militery but now it is every Tom Dick and Harry who believes they are sent by their god to decimate the infidels. The Birth pangs are getting ever more frequent and the world calls it global warming or blames mankind for polluting or over populating. People are starving world wide for various reasons, even here in the US, because of the callous perspective of our society to the plight of the needy. It is more like "I do good deeds so people will see" rather than "I do good deeds for the God". Our world has become more selfish and self centered, some are getting richer while others are getting poorer and it seems as if society is purposely being led in that direction and expanding the gulf between the two great classes. People who can help dont while people who want to help cant. Satan has done his job well as our churches are more concerned with wealth than with spritual truth.
If you cannot see how dire our times have come, then you have joined the masses who are lying to themselves.
[quote=RobinD69;6873798][quote=Preterist;6870409]Greetings, Robin. Thank you for your response.
The context of Matthew 10 makes your understanding doubtful. While Jesus was still with His disciples, they did not suffer the things He predicted would happen to them. For instance, they were not delivered "up to the councils" (vs. 17) and scourged in the synagogues until after the crucifixion. The same is true of their being "brought before governors and kings" for His sake (vs. 18). Also, the Spirit that is mentioned in verse 20 was not imparted to them until Pentecost. They were also not "hated of all men" for His name's sake until some time after the crucifixion. It was, therefore, after that time, during the time of the writings of the events of the Book of Acts and the epistles that they were persecuted and had to flee from one city to another (vss. 21-23). In that context and in that time frame, Jesus said "YOU shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of Man be come." This is the same coming of Matthew 16:28; 24:34 and 26:64!
Quote:
I agree, but these things are happening still today in parts of the world, so how would you explain the 7 years of tribulation since it has been almost 2 millenium.
I understand the limits of such numerical allegories, but isnt it promised that he will bring His kingdom to this world. and not just the next?
But what of Deuteronomy 30, which we all have ignored for the most part.
But what if they were?
But what of Deateronomy 30?
What if He was speaking to believers as a whole? We do know that the scriptures are relevant to every generation.
I know, I go to another site of multiple faiths and have to answer them all the time, and believe me they are blind to the simplest of things. They also point out alot how no two Christians agree on everything and of course there are those who claim to be Christians that dont seem much like Christians. I just cannot agree with the second coming being fulfilled in the first century. Sorry.
Yeah I know, but it is possible that many of the first century believers misunderstood just as we do today.
Greeting, Robin. What do we know of tribulation in the NT? Cross-referencing in always helpful. The words "tribulation" and "tribulations" occur over 20 times in the NT. Most of them deal with the context of historical things involving those first-century believers! Let's consider some of them.
Matthew 24:21, 29--Jesus is speaking directly to those disciples right there with Him when He tells them of the tribulation that is going to come in their day! He has just described the persecutions and troubles that would befall them personally--THEY were to be hated, persecuted, and killed for His name's sake. After the that tribulation of those days Jesus has just described, the FIGURATIVE signs in the heavens occur--typical prophetic and metaphorical language used to relate God's judgment!
Paul wrote to the Roman believers concerning tribulation that would work in THEM patience (Rom. 5:3; 12:12) and that none of it could separate them from God's love (Rom. 8:35). Paul tells the Corinthians of his day that he was "exceedingly joyful" in the tribulation (2 Cor. 7:4).
Who are the intended recipients of this great tribulation? We find the answer in the woes pronounced on that generation of Jews who killed the prophets and their Messiah and were guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Matthew 23). Paul told the Thessalonians that God was to bring tribulation on those who troubled THEM (2 Thes. 1:6). The Church went through the tribulation which God allowed them to endure--tribulation brought upon them by the Romans and the Jews. The Great Tribulation was judgment by God directed specifically at that group of apostate, murderous, adulterous, idolatrous Jews of the first century (Revelation 2:22). John described himself as their "brother and companion in tribulation" (Rev. 1:9).
All of this was the fulfillment of Daniel 9 and the 70 weeks. Again, only one generation could see that specific abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Jesus clearly stated that those disciples of His generation would see it!
I do not understand the problem with Deuteronomy 30. There is no need to thrust any of this into our time or beyond. The history of Israel is replete with instances of their disobedience and ensuing captivities and dispersions. But there was always a remnant--those circumcised in their hearts--true Jews based upon the same faith as Abraham had which made them his spiritual seed. In Daniel 12 we find the ultimate end for those Jews who lived in continual disobedience to God. Daniel spoke of the shattering of the power of the holy people. This occurred in A. D. 70 when national Israel was once and for all destroyed and her identity forever lost through death and dispersion. To those who want make a big deal of modern Israel's birth (1948), they must explain how this can be a fulfillment of prophecy when they did not return in faith and obedience--a biblical requirement!
Robin, please reread Matthew 24. Can you not see that Jesus is not addressing believers as a whole but is speaking directly to those specific believers of his day concerning things that were to personally involve them?
You say that you simply cannot believe that the Second Coming has already occurred, yet you give no specifics. Jesus clearly said He was coming back in that generation. Why can you not accept that?
[quote=RobinD69;6873798][quote=Preterist;6870409]Greetings, Robin. Thank you for your response.
The context of Matthew 10 makes your understanding doubtful. While Jesus was still with His disciples, they did not suffer the things He predicted would happen to them. For instance, they were not delivered "up to the councils" (vs. 17) and scourged in the synagogues until after the crucifixion. The same is true of their being "brought before governors and kings" for His sake (vs. 18). Also, the Spirit that is mentioned in verse 20 was not imparted to them until Pentecost. They were also not "hated of all men" for His name's sake until some time after the crucifixion. It was, therefore, after that time, during the time of the writings of the events of the Book of Acts and the epistles that they were persecuted and had to flee from one city to another (vss. 21-23). In that context and in that time frame, Jesus said "YOU shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of Man be come." This is the same coming of Matthew 16:28; 24:34 and 26:64!
Quote:
I agree, but these things are happening still today in parts of the world, so how would you explain the 7 years of tribulation since it has been almost 2 millenium.
I understand the limits of such numerical allegories, but isnt it promised that he will bring His kingdom to this world. and not just the next?
But what of Deuteronomy 30, which we all have ignored for the most part.
But what if they were?
But what of Deateronomy 30?
What if He was speaking to believers as a whole? We do know that the scriptures are relevant to every generation.
I know, I go to another site of multiple faiths and have to answer them all the time, and believe me they are blind to the simplest of things. They also point out alot how no two Christians agree on everything and of course there are those who claim to be Christians that dont seem much like Christians. I just cannot agree with the second coming being fulfilled in the first century. Sorry.
Yeah I know, but it is possible that many of the first century believers misunderstood just as we do today.
Greetings, Robin! Thanks for your response. What do we know of tribulation as it is described in the NT? Cross-referencing is always helpful. The words "tribulation" and "tribulations" occur over 20 times in the NT. Most of them deal with the context of historical things involving those first-century believers! Let's consider some of them.
Matthew 24:21, 29--Jesus is speaking directly to those disciples right there with Him when He tells them of the tribulation that is going to come in their day! He has just described the persecutions and troubles that would befall them personally--THEY were to be hated, persecuted, and killed for His name's sake. After the tribulation of those days which Jesus has just described, the FIGURATIVE signs in the heavens occur--typical prophetic and metaphorical language used to relate God's judgment!
Paul wrote to the Roman believers concerning tribulation that would work in THEM patience (Rom. 5:3; 12:12) and that none of it could separate them from God's love (Rom. 8:35). Paul tells the Corinthians of his day that he was "exceedingly joyful" in the tribulation (2 Cor. 7:4).
Who are the intended recipients of this great tribulation? We find the answer in the woes pronounced on that generation of Jews who killed the prophets and their Messiah and were guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Matthew 23). Paul told the Thessalonians that God was to bring tribulation on those who troubled THEM (2 Thes. 1:6). The Church went through the tribulation which God allowed them to endure--tribulation brought upon them by the Romans and the Jews. The Great Tribulation was judgment by God directed specifically at that group of apostate, murderous, adulterous, idolatrous Jews of the first century (Revelation 2:22). John described himself as their "brother and companion in tribulation" (Rev. 1:9).
All of this was the fulfillment of Daniel 9 and the 70 weeks. Again, only one generation could see that specific abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Jesus clearly stated that those disciples of His generation would see it! This cannot be repeated.
I do not understand the problem with Deuteronomy 30. There is no need to thrust any of this into our time or beyond. The history of Israel is replete with instances of their disobedience and ensuing captivities and dispersions. But there was always a remnant--those circumcised in their hearts--true Jews based upon the same faith as Abraham had which made them his spiritual seed. In Daniel 12 we find the ultimate end for those Jews who lived in continual disobedience to God. Daniel spoke of the shattering of the power of the holy people. This occurred in A. D. 70 when national Israel was once and for all destroyed and her identity forever lost through death and dispersion. To those who want to make a big deal of modern Israel's birth (1948), they must explain how this can be a fulfillment of prophecy when those "Jews" did not return in faith and obedience--a biblical requirement for regathering and blessing!
Robin, please reread Matthew 24. Can you not see that Jesus is not addressing believers as a whole but is speaking directly to those specific believers of his day concerning things that were to personally involve them?
You say that you simply cannot believe that the Second Coming has already occurred, yet you give no specifics. Jesus clearly said He was coming back in that generation. Why can you not accept that? What did Jesus mean?
Matthew 10:23
Matthew 16:28
Matthew 24:34
Matthew 26:64
The context of Matthew 10 makes your understanding doubtful. While Jesus was still with His disciples, they did not suffer the things He predicted would happen to them. For instance, they were not delivered "up to the councils" (vs. 17) and scourged in the synagogues until after the crucifixion. The same is true of their being "brought before governors and kings" for His sake (vs. 18). Also, the Spirit that is mentioned in verse 20 was not imparted to them until Pentecost. They were also not "hated of all men" for His name's sake until some time after the crucifixion. It was, therefore, after that time, during the time of the writings of the events of the Book of Acts and the epistles that they were persecuted and had to flee from one city to another (vss. 21-23). In that context and in that time frame, Jesus said "YOU shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of Man be come." This is the same coming of Matthew 16:28; 24:34 and 26:64!
Greeting, Robin. What do we know of tribulation in the NT? Cross-referencing in always helpful. The words "tribulation" and "tribulations" occur over 20 times in the NT. Most of them deal with the context of historical things involving those first-century believers! Let's consider some of them.
Matthew 24:21, 29--Jesus is speaking directly to those disciples right there with Him when He tells them of the tribulation that is going to come in their day! He has just described the persecutions and troubles that would befall them personally--THEY were to be hated, persecuted, and killed for His name's sake. After the that tribulation of those days Jesus has just described, the FIGURATIVE signs in the heavens occur--typical prophetic and metaphorical language used to relate God's judgment!
Paul wrote to the Roman believers concerning tribulation that would work in THEM patience (Rom. 5:3; 12:12) and that none of it could separate them from God's love (Rom. 8:35). Paul tells the Corinthians of his day that he was "exceedingly joyful" in the tribulation (2 Cor. 7:4).
Who are the intended recipients of this great tribulation? We find the answer in the woes pronounced on that generation of Jews who killed the prophets and their Messiah and were guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Matthew 23). Paul told the Thessalonians that God was to bring tribulation on those who troubled THEM (2 Thes. 1:6). The Church went through the tribulation which God allowed them to endure--tribulation brought upon them by the Romans and the Jews. The Great Tribulation was judgment by God directed specifically at that group of apostate, murderous, adulterous, idolatrous Jews of the first century (Revelation 2:22). John described himself as their "brother and companion in tribulation" (Rev. 1:9).
All of this was the fulfillment of Daniel 9 and the 70 weeks. Again, only one generation could see that specific abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Jesus clearly stated that those disciples of His generation would see it!
I do not understand the problem with Deuteronomy 30. There is no need to thrust any of this into our time or beyond. The history of Israel is replete with instances of their disobedience and ensuing captivities and dispersions. But there was always a remnant--those circumcised in their hearts--true Jews based upon the same faith as Abraham had which made them his spiritual seed. In Daniel 12 we find the ultimate end for those Jews who lived in continual disobedience to God. Daniel spoke of the shattering of the power of the holy people. This occurred in A. D. 70 when national Israel was once and for all destroyed and her identity forever lost through death and dispersion. To those who want make a big deal of modern Israel's birth (1948), they must explain how this can be a fulfillment of prophecy when they did not return in faith and obedience--a biblical requirement!
Robin, please reread Matthew 24. Can you not see that Jesus is not addressing believers as a whole but is speaking directly to those specific believers of his day concerning things that were to personally involve them?
You say that you simply cannot believe that the Second Coming has already occurred, yet you give no specifics. Jesus clearly said He was coming back in that generation. Why can you not accept that?
Matthew 10:23
Matthew 16:28
Matthew 24:34
I am sorry Preterist, it just doesnt work for me. Everything I read still connects together and points to the future. I am trully sorry, either I am not far enough along to see what you see or perhaps it is you, I do not know for certain. What I do know is that this little disagreement is a trivial matter and I am sure that when Christ wants us to understand He will make things clearer to us both.
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Oh, and make quick enjoyment of it cause in 7 years you'll have nothing except singed hair, fire and brimstone. Quite the trade off for some earthly possessions.
