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Old 01-07-2009, 07:45 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 2,037,705 times
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[quote=RobinD69;6890427][quote=Preterist;6889428]
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post

I am sorry Preterist, it just doesnt work for me. Everything I read still connects together and points to the future. I am trully sorry, either I am not far enough along to see what you see or perhaps it is you, I do not know for certain. What I do know is that this little disagreement is a trivial matter and I am sure that when Christ wants us to understand He will make things clearer to us both.
Robin, I see this more than just an matter of a particular issue but more importantly a matter of proper hermeneutics. If we do not approach the Bible with correct interpretive skills, we will miss the mark on many issues.

One of the most neglected of these skills is a proper and thorough consideration of the context. When someone is talking to a person or a group and addressing them as "you," we must seek to understand the setting in which the words were spoken. We should always attempt to understand what words meant to the original hearers and readers before we attempt to make any application to ourselves.

If a clear time statement is made, we must be willing to acknowledge it and include it in our interpretation. We must be willing to do the hard work of cross-referencing words and phrases to help ensure that we are properly understanding a passage. A case in point is 2 Peter 3. Many teach that the "elements" refer to the physical, atomic make up of the earth. But a simple cross-referencing reveals that this Greek word (stoicheia) never has that meaning in its other occurrences. It always refers to precepts and principles and has nothing to do with the elements found on the Periodic Table! In this case, the failure to ascertain the proper meaning of a word has led to a faulty understanding.

Another prime example is the expression "this generation"--used by Jesus around 20 times to refer to His contemporaries. Based upon the common meaning found in all of the other verses, the burden of proof falls upon those who, without precedent, give an aberrant rendering to this expression in Matthew 24:34.

We must be good students of the OT and its prophetic language and Jewish mindset. We must be careful to make literal that which is literal and figurative that which is figurative.

Most of all, we must be careful to let the Scriptures say what they say and make a firm determination not to let any preconceived ideas cause us to miss the mark.

Simply because we cannot "see" something and simply because something goes against what is commonly taught and what we have long believed does not negate clear and obvious teachings in God's Word.

What I say to you, I say to myself. Are we always willing to abandon anything and everything in light of the actual words of the Bible? If something was clearly said to be about to happen in the first-century time frame, will we accept that in spite of any injustice it might cause to our positions?

Again, I do not object to people disagreeing with me, but I far too often find the substance of that disagreement to lack strong scriptural support and justification. Often my biblical expositions are responded to with unkind and pointless name calling (thank you, Robin, for not doing that!). If we cannot personally refute someone's arguments, we should not easily dismiss them. I try to never hold any position or make any claim unless I have thoroughly researched the issue. And even then, I try to be open to anyone who approaches me with sound exegetical support for his opposition.

Sadly, I find so many in the Church sorely lacking in Bible study skills but intensely willing to accept without question the teachings of others. But we are all called, to the best of our abilities, to rightly divide the word of truth.

This is my passion--to encourage my fellow Christians to not only read their Bibles but to study them with all the resources and helps available to them. It is a serious thing to misunderstand God's Word. We are all susceptible to error.

In Christ, Preterist
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Old 01-07-2009, 08:51 PM
 
21,946 posts, read 9,769,441 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Sadly, I find so many in the Church sorely lacking in Bible study skills but intensely willing to accept without question the teachings of others. But we are all called, to the best of our abilities, to rightly divide the word of truth.

This is my passion--to encourage my fellow Christians to not only read their Bibles but to study them with all the resources and helps available to them. It is a serious thing to misunderstand God's Word. We are all susceptible to error.

In Christ, Preterist
I couldn't agree more with the bolded portion, Preterist. I have remained out of the preterist/futurist debates on purpose because the resolution of the debate is not central to either understanding what God wants of us nor understanding God. But your mention of hermeneutics (as your passion) brings up an important point I have been uncertain how to broach here. Scripture contains spiritual truth (we all agree with that) . . . but each mind that reads it is not equal nor able to discern it in the same way. Yet, it has the content necessary to inform ALL sincere consciousnesses AT A LEVEL THEY CAN RELATE TO . . . that is its power. Sincerity and the desire to possess the answers is the key.

The understanding of religious intuitions contrasts hermeneutic knowledge with that of sophia (wisdom or worldly knowledge). The higher the level of sophia . . . the higher the level at which hermeneutics must be employed. Religious knowledge is a knowledge of what has been revealed or said and does NOT, (like sophia) involve knowledge of the worldly truth-value or history or whatever . . . this is the major error that is made in interpreting it.

Only with the Stoics, and their reflections on the interpretation of myths, did we encounter something like a methodological awareness of the problems of textual understanding. But it was Origenes who originally expounded on this view of levels by claiming that Scripture had three levels of meaning . . . (corresponding to the triangle of body, soul, and spirit) . . . each of which reflects a progressively more advanced stage of religious understanding.

Today hermeneutics is not just about symbolic communication. Its area is even more fundamental: that of human life and existence as such. It is in this form, as an interrogation into the deepest conditions for symbolic interaction and culture in general, that hermeneutics has provided the critical horizon for the most enlightened understanding of the "spiritual fossil record" of the evolution of human consciousness and spirituality.

The sign that you have achieved hermeneutic understanding at a level you can handle . . . is your cognitive comfort with and acceptance of it.
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Old 01-07-2009, 08:58 PM
 
8,990 posts, read 8,231,049 times
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Yes we have such a problem in interpreting, "Jesus is the only way" from the passge, (John 14:6) Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

So difficult to interpret as oppose to the easy book of revelations.
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Old 01-08-2009, 08:08 AM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
3,981 posts, read 5,076,410 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Yes we have such a problem in interpreting, "Jesus is the only way" from the passge, (John 14:6) Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

So difficult to interpret as oppose to the easy book of revelations.

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Old 01-08-2009, 09:46 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 5,863,472 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StirringWaters View Post
You are going where He is leading...no one should slam you. Go with God, DotL...I'm going to pray for your time today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
Go with God my friend.
Thank you StirringWaters and Robin for your support. Wow, what God can reveal to us if we will only listen.
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Old 01-08-2009, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
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Preterist, I am not arguing with you, I just do not see it the same way you do no matter how hard I try. Is there any way we can go back to the original Greek and see what that actually says, because pretty often words like you they and them are universal or misunsed in translation.
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Old 01-08-2009, 01:14 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 5,863,472 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Yes we have such a problem in interpreting, "Jesus is the only way" from the passge, (John 14:6) Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

So difficult to interpret as oppose to the easy book of revelations.
Yes, requires many of man's degrees to grasp that one.
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Old 01-08-2009, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,191 posts, read 3,004,966 times
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Matthew 24:1-28 (New American Standard Bible)


Matthew 24

Signs of Christ's Return

1(A)Jesus (B)came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
2And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, (C)not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

70AD

3As He was sitting on (D)the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of (E)Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
4And Jesus answered and said to them, "(F)See to it that no one misleads you.
5"For (G)many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.
6"You will be hearing of (H)wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.
7"For (I)nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be (J)famines and earthquakes.
8"(K)But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
9"(L)Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and (M)you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

Remember "all nations"

10"At that time many will (N)fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

Sounds like our current situation.

11"Many (O)false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

More of today.

12"Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.

Still looks like today.

13"(P)But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Is this the end of time or the end of an era?

14"This (Q)gospel of the kingdom (R)shall be preached in the whole (S)world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

There generation had not spread to all the world by the end of the apostolic time. Perilous Times

15"Therefore when you see the (T)ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in (U)the holy place ((V)let the reader understand),
16then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
17"Whoever is on (W)the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18"Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19"But (X)woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20"But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21"For then there will be a (Y)great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Now this right here seperates the idea of it being the first century because those times were no worse than any other.

22"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for (Z)the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

This seems to be refering to His literal second coming.

23"(AA)Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.
24"For false Christs and (AB)false prophets will arise and will show great (AC)signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even (AD)the elect.

I am sorry but it still looks like the present rather than the first century to me.

25"Behold, I have told you in advance.
26"So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27"(AE)For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the (AF)coming of the (AG)Son of Man be. 28"(AH)Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

I appreciate your effort Preterist but there are some alls in there that sort of seem to stump the yous. I still feel He is speaking of the church as a whole.
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Old 01-08-2009, 07:36 PM
 
12,353 posts, read 7,553,324 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
Matthew 24:1-28 (New American Standard Bible)

Remember "all nations"

Hi RobinD69,

I will keep it simple. There is a choice one can make. One can interpret words like "all", "every", "always", "never" and "world" hyperbolically or contextually.

Colossians 1
5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit,[b] as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
Romans 1

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

John 12
19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, “You see that you are accomplishing nothing. Look, the world has gone after Him!”
Zephaniah 1
2 “ I will utterly consume everything
From the face of the land,”

Says the LORD;
3 “ I will consume man and beast;
I will consume the birds of the heavens,
The fish of the sea,
And the stumbling blocks[a] along with the wicked.
I will cut off man from the face of the land,”
Says the LORD.
Amos 8
“ The end has come upon My people Israel;
I will not pass by them anymore.
3 And the songs of the temple
Shall be wailing in that day,”
Says the Lord GOD—
Isaiah 13
To destroy the whole land.
6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand!
It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore all hands will be limp,
Every man’s heart will melt,

Now these events have either transpired or can be shown to create biblical contradictions if interpreted hyperbolically and universally. In each of those cases the Bible is false unless taken contextually.
You do not have the resources you believe you have to insist "all nations" forces your point.
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Old 01-09-2009, 08:07 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 5,863,472 times
Reputation: 58111
****SIGH*****

quoting myself here:

"We are told in the Bible to warn, and part of that warning is to be completely truthful about what the Bible says. It benefits no one to lie to them or sugar coat it by telling them all will be reconciled to God eventually no matter what they believe or do. Not only does it NOT benefit them, but the lies will send them to hell for eternity. That is the most dangerous false belief there is, because it gives unbelievers the false hope that they are safe from hell no matter what they do in this life.

If you can't see that what we fundamentalist Christians are trying to tell you is with the utmost love and concern, then the devil has you by the *****. It doesn't matter whether you like the presentation or my particular way of presenting it, but the truth is the truth and there's not a whole lot of that being told in these last days. You need to worry about yourself and getting right with God, and stop worrying about "oooh, I'm so offended" and criticizing and judging others for speaking the truth of God's Word. There is a way more pressing matter to be concerned about.......THE END OF DAYS AND THE COMING OF JESUS CHRIST. Buck up and spread the gospel."
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