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In the original Hebrew it does not say this...It says that He will be a wonderful counsellor, a mighty warrior, everlating ruler of peace...It says nothing about father or God in that passage...The word that has been translated as 'God' is gibbor...
H1368
גּבּר גּבּור
gibbôr gibbôr
ghib-bore', ghib-bore'
Intensive from the same as H1397; powerful; by implication warrior, tyrant: - champion, chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), strong (man), valiant man.
H410
אל
'êl
ale
Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity): - God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."
In Isaiah 9:5 (Eng v. 6), one title for the Messianic King is El Gibbor. This phrase raises a quandary how to translate it. Gibbor, as a noun, means a mighty man, hero or warrior. Its related noun gever is a strong man, often in battle. If Gibbor is a noun in this verse, the most literal rendering of El Gibbor would be "God Warrior."
However, since gibbor can also be an adjective (= mighty, strong, valiant), most English translations render El Gibbor as "Mighty God." (In Hebrew the adjective usually follows its noun.) But El can also perform adjectival service. Its root meaning is might or power, so too it can denote something that is powerful, mighty, or divine. El Gibbor could mean "Divine (El) Warrior (Gibbor)" or "Mighty (El) Hero (Gibbor)."
You made that same claim in post #278 of my thread Jesus Christ is both God and Man. A question for those of you who deny that!!! You claimed there that in Isaiah 9:6 the Mighty God should be translated as 'mighty man of God', and you claimed that the word 'Father' is not found in the Hebrew. You are wrong. Below is what I posted in my reply to you in that thread, and which you never answered.
[quote=Mike555;27270700]Isaiah 9:6 is not better translated as 'mighty man of God'. It is correctly translated as 'Mighty God' just as it is correctly translated 'mighty God' in Isaiah 10:21 where 'mighty God' is clearly a reference to the true God.Isa. 10:20 Now in that day the remnant of Israel, and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped, will never again rely on the one who struck them ('the one who struck them' is a reference to Assyria [v.24] during Sennacherib's reign, which God used to punish Israel [refer to 2 Chronicles 32:1-11]) but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. 21] A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God (el gibbor ).
In Isa. 9:6 Isaiah refers to the Messiah as the Mighty God. In Isa. 10:20-21, Isaiah calls the LORD, the Holy One of Israel [v.20] the mighty God [v.21].
With regard to attempts to translate Isa 9:6 as other than 'the mighty God', Barnes' Notes on the Bible states the following:
The mighty God - Syriac, 'The mighty God of ages.' This is one, and but one out of many, of the instances in which the name God is applied to the Messiah; compare John 1:1; Romans 9:5; 1 John 5:20; John 20:28; 1 Timothy 3:16; Hebrews 1:8. The name 'mighty God,' is unquestionably attributed to the true God in Isaiah 10:21. Much controversy has arisen in relation to this expression; and attempts have been made to show that the word translated "God," אל 'ĕl, may refer to a hero, a king, a conqueror. Thus Gesenius renders, it 'Mighty hero;' and supposes that the name 'God' is used here in accordance with the custom of the Orientals, who ascribe divine attributes to kings. In like manner Pluschke (see Hengstenberg) says, 'In my opinion this name is altogether symbolical. The Messiah shall be called strength of God, or strong God, divine hero, in order by this name to remind the people of the strength of God.' But after all such controversy, it still remains certain that the natural and obvious meaning of the expression is to denote a divine nature. So it was evidently understood by the ancient versions; and the fact that the name God is so often applied to Christ in the New Testament proves that it is to be understood in its natural and obvious signification. Isaiah 9:6 Bible Commentary
Regarding your claim that the word 'Father' is not found in the Hebrew, you were shown that it is indeed found in the Hebrew. Here is what I said in that thread.
The correct English translation of the Hebrew text is Isa. 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father (’ă·ḇî·‘aḏ), Prince of Peace.
*****Regarding the phrase 'Eternal Father', the Hebrew is ’ă·ḇî·‘aḏ where ’ă·ḇî means Father, and 'aḏ means eternal or everlasting.
The word 'Sar' - 'prince' belongs to the phrase 'Prince of Peace'. It does not belong to the phrase 'Eternal Father' which again is where ’ă·ḇî means Father, and 'aḏ means eternal or everlasting.
The phrase 'Eternal Father' is a Hebrew idiom which means 'Father of Eternity' and does not refer to Jesus Christ's relation to the Trinity. In other words the phrase 'the Eternal Father' is not saying that Jesus Christ is God the Father. The phrase 'Eternal Father' or 'Father of Eternity' expresses Jesus Christ's relationship to time. It expresses the eternality of Jesus Christ, who as God is eternal.
אֲבִ pronouned 'ahv' (like when you stick out your tongue and say 'ah', but add the 'v', the 'v' is pronounced as in the word 'vowel'. Or maybe it would be better to describe the sound in writing as allvah in one syllable) means 'father'. So in אֲבִיעַ֖ד - ’ă·ḇî·‘aḏ it is 'eternal Father.
Quote:
In 7:14 Isaiah uses another messianic title: "Behold, the virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call his name Immanu-El" — that is, "With-us-is El" (cf. 8:8). In 8:10 "Immanu-El" is a statement, not a name: "Devise a plan but it will be thwarted; state a proposal but it will not stand, for God is with us." - Hebrew Streams: Elohim in Context: Details
And here is an interesting passage:
Isa 7:14 So, The Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold! The virgin will conceive and will bring forth a son; and she shall call His nameImmanuel.
Isa 7:15 He shall eat curds and honey until He knows to refuse the evil and choose the good.
Why, if Yeshua was born as HaShem, would He need to LEARN to refuse the evil and CHOOSE the good?...
The prophecy Isa 7:14-15 applies to primarily to Ahaz regarding the breaking of the Aram-Israel alliance. Isaiah prohesized that a virgin (a young woman [almah]) would bear a child, who would not yet be old enough to know the difference between good and evil before the Aram-Israel alliance would be broken.
However, centuries later, God the Holy Spirit led Matthew (Matt. 1:21-23) to quote Isaiah 7:14 with regard to something that is also true of a virgin birth - a baby being born to a woman who is still a virgin - who has never been with a man.
Quote:
This is why Yeshua said that:
Mat 28:18 And coming up Jesus talked with them, saying, All authority in Heaven and on earth was given to Me.
Which would imply that it was not His before it was given to Him...By who was it given?...
As God, Jesus Christ has always had the authority which belongs to God. But the authority given to Jesus by the Father refers to His mediatorship. This is shown in Phil. 2:5-11 in which Jesus who always existed as God, became man and went to the cross for which reason God the Father highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him a name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow, and every tongue will acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-05-2013 at 08:40 AM..
This entire thread, starting with the provocative title: "Jesus is Not God according to the Bible (Gospels, woman, churches)" ... only seeks to promote the teachings of one of many cults who deny the deity of Christ - and then attempt to wrap their false-doctrine in a 'bible seal of approval.' (My guess is that it is either a JW doctrine or Islamic, but, that really doesn't matter) -- False doctrine is false doctrine! --- regardless of what it is called or how it is wrapped! Our 'job' as Christians is to lift-up the truth (just as Jesus and His disciples did). It is not to immerse ourselves in 'tearing down the lies, which only re-emerge in another form.
It's really not that complicated and doesn't take pages of etymological dissection -- so we can understand (?) where the OP is coming from. It takes the Bible and a God-seeking heart to understand God's truth that there are three persons in the Trinity. All are One in three and three in one: God the Father; God in the flesh of the Son, Jesus Christ; and God in the Holy Spirit. - This is not something that is deduced by human logic or rhetoric, but, which is communicated by God through His Living and Written Word and affirmed by the Holy Spirit.
Isa 9:6 For a Child is born; to us a Son is given; and the government is on His shoulder; and His name is called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty Man, The Everlasting Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 There is no end to[What?] the increase of His government andof peace on the throne of David, and on His kingdom, to order it, and to sustain it with justice and with righteousness, from now and forever. The zeal of[WHO?] Jehovah of Hosts [will do] this.
Gee Mike, I looked at your Interlinear you provided and I do not see the word Father in the word for word translation, I see 'Of Peace Prince Eternal'...Eternal Prince of Peace...
Isa 9:6 For a Child is born; to us a Son is given; and the government is on His shoulder; and His name is called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty Man, The Everlasting Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 There is no end to[What?] the increase of His government andof peace on the throne of David, and on His kingdom, to order it, and to sustain it with justice and with righteousness, from now and forever. The zeal of[WHO?] Jehovah of Hosts [will do] this.
Are you still going to deny that Isa. 9:6 says eternal (or everlasting) Father? Refer back to post #211.
פלא יועץ אל גבור אביעד שׂר־שׁלום׃ = Wonderful councellor to the Almighty... שׂר־שׁלום׃ = Prince of Peace
Answer my question Richard. Are you still going to deny that Isaiah 9:6 says eternal Father? You have been shown quite clearly in post #211 that it does.
Answer my question Richard. Are you still going to deny that Isaiah 9:6 says eternal Father? You have been shown quite clearly in post #211 that it does.
Sorry, it does not say that...You should learn some Hebrew grammar instead of all this cutting and pasting you do....
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