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Hi, Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. He was the perfect lamb slain but Jesus was the exact image of the invisible God. What is an image? One key thing to me is that the scriptures teach that Jesus will be subject to the Father. If He will be subject to the Father, how can He be the same as the Father? How can one who is absolute God be subject to an absolute God? God bless.
As a man, he was subject to the Father. Phil. chap. 2:6 says clearly that who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of man.
As the second person of the trinity he is 100 percent God and equal with the Father.
I just read the most wonderful explanation of the trinity on the thebereancall.org. The fullness of the God-head was in the Jesus. That is why he can be called the everlasting Father is Isaiah 9:6 and still be the Son at the same time. God is three persons yet One God- not three Gods. Jesus is not the Father is the sense that he is the Son, yet, he is the Father(can't split up the trinity) because the Father completely dwells in Him as does the Spirit. Jesus is fully God is the flesh-1 or 2 Timothy says Great is the mystery of godliness-that God was manifested in the flesh. When Phillip asks Jesus to show us the Father, Jesus says you've seen me, you've seen the Father and goes on to explain how the Father dwells in him(Jesus) and they are one.
That is a great explanation on thebereancall.org and I'd highly reccommend it/
As a man, he was subject to the Father. Phil. chap. 2:6 says clearly that who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of man.
As the second person of the trinity he is 100 percent God and equal with the Father.
I just read the most wonderful explanation of the trinity on the thebereancall.org. The fullness of the God-head was in the Jesus. That is why he can be called the everlasting Father is Isaiah 9:6 and still be the Son at the same time. God is three persons yet One God- not three Gods. Jesus is not the Father is the sense that he is the Son, yet, he is the Father(can't split up the trinity) because the Father completely dwells in Him as does the Spirit. Jesus is fully God is the flesh-1 or 2 Timothy says Great is the mystery of godliness-that God was manifested in the flesh. When Phillip asks Jesus to show us the Father, Jesus says you've seen me, you've seen the Father and goes on to explain how the Father dwells in him(Jesus) and they are one.
That is a great explanation on thebereancall.org and I'd highly reccommend it/
As a man, he was subject to the Father. Phil. chap. 2:6 says clearly that who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of man.
As the second person of the trinity he is 100 percent God and equal with the Father.
I just read the most wonderful explanation of the trinity on the thebereancall.org. The fullness of the God-head was in the Jesus. That is why he can be called the everlasting Father is Isaiah 9:6 and still be the Son at the same time. God is three persons yet One God- not three Gods. Jesus is not the Father is the sense that he is the Son, yet, he is the Father(can't split up the trinity) because the Father completely dwells in Him as does the Spirit. Jesus is fully God is the flesh-1 or 2 Timothy says Great is the mystery of godliness-that God was manifested in the flesh. When Phillip asks Jesus to show us the Father, Jesus says you've seen me, you've seen the Father and goes on to explain how the Father dwells in him(Jesus) and they are one.
That is a great explanation on thebereancall.org and I'd highly reccommend it/
That's right.
He is not finite and not actually split into separate Gods.
God is one and yet He is revealing Himself in three ways - showing us the conflict between the holy and the unholy -showing us how He Himself brought forth a solution, and now enabling us to begin and then proceed along the path on which He leads.
When one considers that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God who dwells in the heart of the believer, it puts a whole new perspective on things concerning faith to "move mountains" and the need to pursue holiness to be a clean vessel worthy of such a presence.
Apparently His presence is not just some symbolic concept either.
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--
for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:10-13
Last edited by Richio; 12-31-2008 at 08:52 AM..
Reason: corrected "worthy"
As the second person of the trinity he is 100 percent God and equal with the Father.
Hi, how can this be if He will be subject to the Father , when He delivers the kingdom the Father? Jesus has been raised from the dead and is seated at the right hand of the Father, however He is to be subject to the Father. How is this co-equal? How can He be equal with the Father if He received all things from the Father? Jesus said that He could do nothing of His own and Jesus said that He did not come of His own accord. The Father sent Him. How can a co equal send another co equal? One must be over the other. All authority in heaven and earth was given to Him. If Jesus is equal to the Father, He would not have been given anything and He would already have all authority in heaven. All would already be His. This tells me that the Father is supreme. If Jesus was in the form of God, this tells me that there is a difference. Also He is said to the exact image of God. He was the Word made flesh.
There seems to be 2 translations of this verse with 2 different meanings
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:6-8 KJV
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Php 2:6-8 NASB
"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him,
and
one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
Quote:
Why would there have to be a 3 in 1 God? Why this convoluted 3 in 1 God who has to call himself the son? Why wouldn`t he just come down and say I`m the Father..period? I`m here to save the world in the form of man. I`m not the son of anyone..I`m me...God..the Father. I don`t have to pray to anyone because I`m the supreme being. No one is greater than me. The reason? Because the Father and son are not the same. They are not equal. One is greater than the other. One is seated at the right of the other. One is subject to the other
Christ Contrasted With Deity (http://www.gtft.org/Library/knoch/contrast.htm - broken link)
Have a blessed day.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-31-2008 at 09:49 AM..
Here is something shared by another poster which illlustrates this to me
Quote:
" I believe in one God Almighty, the Father. The one Jesus prayed too. The one whose right hand he is now sitting. Christ is worthy of our worship because God the Father gave him all things including his attributes. He gave Jesus the fullness of his Spirit. Essentially making him God, The best analogy I can make,and it might not be a good one is this... There is a father who owns a company..he started it,he built it from scratch and he has a son. His son grows up and the Father gives him the keys to the business. He teaches him about the business. So, the son learns everything from him. His father says son,the business is yours to run. His father essentially makes him part owner but not an equal owner. The Father still has the majority stock or ownership but the son is running the business because the father gave it to him to run. Every employee would call the son boss and be subject to him. They would have to answer to him. He would have the ability to hire and fire people because he was running the business for his father. To the employees and clients of the business, both the son and the father are boss. But the son is the one they would go to if there was a problem. Because you have to go through the chain of command and no one goes to the father but by the son. So one day,after the business is huge and successful and everything is perfect with that business...because the son has got the business running perfectly...the son then and only then hands the business back over to his father. So it ends,exactly the way it started with the Father sitting in control of his business."
I believe that Jesus is the exact image or representation of the Almighty, God the Father. This is why Thomas said, "My Lord, my God!" When we look at Jesus Christ we see the Almighty God because God the Father is in Him. In Jesus Christ the fulness of the Deity dwells. Jesus said whoever had seen Him, had seen the Father. Jesus had every right to say this because He represented the Alpha and the Omega and The Alpha and the Omega gave Him this authority.
"For I did not speak on my own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me commandment, what to say, and what to speak." (John 12:49)
"As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, also shall live because of Me." (John 6:57)
"If God were your Father, you would love Me for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me." (John 8:42)
Here is something shared by another poster which illlustrates this to me
I believe that Jesus is the exact image or representation of the Almighty, God the Father. This is why Thomas said, "My Lord, my God!" When we look at Jesus Christ we see the Almighty God because God the Father is in Him. In Jesus Christ the fulness of the Deity dwells. Jesus said whoever had seen Him, had seen the Father. Jesus had every right to say this because He represented the Alpha and the Omega and The Alpha and the Omega gave Him this authority.
"For I did not speak on my own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me commandment, what to say, and what to speak." (John 12:49)
"As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, also shall live because of Me." (John 6:57)
"If God were your Father, you would love Me for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me." (John 8:42)
God bless.
Hi Shana,
They indeed have distinct purposes - even "roles":
The Spirit connecting us to the Son (and through Christ - to the Father) and the Son leading us to the Father.
Jesus is our role model and He subjected Himself to the Father's will.
We want to think of God as either "this" or "that", but He is bigger; He is "this" and "that".
quote=samankaru;6742727]Many people misunderstand the Bible; they feel that the belief in Jesus as God is so widespread that it must have come from the Bible. This article shows quite conclusively that the Bible does not teach that.
The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is not God. In the Bible God is always someone else other than Jesus.
Some will say that something Jesus said or something he did while on the earth proves that he is God. We will show that the disciples never came to the conclusion that Jesus is God. And those are people who lived and walked with Jesus and thus knew first hand what he said and did. Furthermore, we are told in the Acts of the Apostles in the Bible that the disciples were being guided by the Holy Spirit. If Jesus is God, surely they should know it. But they did not. They kept worshipping the one true God who was worshipped by Abraham, Moses, and Jesus (see Acts 3:13).
All of the writers of the Bible believed that God was not Jesus. The idea that Jesus is God did not become part of Christian belief until after the Bible was written, and took many centuries to become part of the faith of Christians.
Matthew, Mark, and Luke, authors of the first three Gospels, believed that Jesus was not God (see Mark 10:18 and Matthew 19:17). They believed that he was the son of God in the sense of a righteous person. Many others too, are similarly called sons of God (see Matthew 23:1-9).
Paul, believed to be the author of some thirteen or fourteen letters in the Bible, also believed that Jesus is not God. For Paul, God first created Jesus, then used Jesus as the agent by which to create the rest of creation (see Colossians 1:15 and 1 Corinthians 8:6). Similar ideas are found in the letter to the Hebrews, and also in the Gospel and Letters of John composed some seventy years after Jesus. In all of these writings, however, Jesus is still a creature of God and is therefore forever subservient to God (see 1 Corinthians 15:28).
Now, because Paul, John, and the author of Hebrews believed that Jesus was God's first creature, some of what they wrote clearly show that Jesus was a pre-existent powerful being. This is often misunderstood to mean that he must have been God. But to say that Jesus was God is to go against what these very authors wrote. Although these authors had this later belief that Jesus is greater than all creatures, they also believed that he was still lesser than God. In fact, John quotes Jesus as saying: "...the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28). And Paul declares that the head of every woman is her husband, the head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God (see 1 Corinthians 11:3).
Therefore, to find something in these writings and claim that these teach that Jesus is God is to misuse and misquote what those authors are saying. What they wrote must be understood in the context of their belief that Jesus is a creature of God as they have already clearly said.
So we see then, that some of the later writers had a higher view of Jesus, but none of the writers of the Bible believed that Jesus is God. The Bible clearly teaches that there is only one true God, the one whom Jesus worshipped (see John 17: 3).
If you need any more proofs let me know
Jesus is the exact image of his father, mind, body and spirit.
THi Shana,
They indeed have distinct purposes - even "roles":
The Spirit connecting us to the Son (and through Christ - to the Father) and the Son leading us to the Father.
Jesus is our role model and He subjected Himself to the Father's will.
We want to think of God as either "this" or "that", but He is bigger; He is "this" and "that".
This is how I see it, Richio, with God's help. All proceeds or is out of the Father. He is the first cause or originator of all. Jesus is our role model and subjected Himself to the Father's will but He will also be subject to the Father. He is pointing us to the Father, the Supreme Being. I believe that the Father is His God and that He directs us to the Father. God bless.
"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him,
and
one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-31-2008 at 11:03 AM..
Hi Richio, there are two understandings of this verse
.
I am reading a Interlinear Greek-Hebrew NT of the KJV and it has for this verse in John 1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word "
"In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word" Concordant Literal
There are various translations. Some believe that it means that the Word was actually God the Father and some believe it to mean that the Word, the message, was God. It's all about God revealing Himself to mankind. For example, Jesus came to reveal, explain who the Father was. Grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ (John 1:18) Jesus, the Word, explains the invisible God to us. Just another perspective of that verse. God bless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
There seems to be 2 translations of this verse with 2 different meanings
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:6-8 KJV
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Php 2:6-8 NASB
"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him,
and
one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
Here is the crux. There cannot be to translations that are true, only one is true. We must use the transcriptions from the original greek and hebrew texts and accept the one true meaning of the scripture. If there is conflict and doubt supported by "contradicting" scripture, we must realize that God and the original scriptures are NOT contradictory, just man's translations of them are. Otherwise, how can we really trust and believe in God's word?
As we have read, Jesus has subjected himself as subordiante to the Father in countless verses. What does this mean? Is Jesus contradicting himself or God? This is impossible. Only OUR interpretations are flawed and contradictory. There can only be one truth. We must study diligently and pray for discernment and wisdom, and most importantly, we must always seek the truth no matter what long-held beliefs we may have had. Our egos get in the way of finding truth because we tell ourselves "how can something that I've known or been taught my whole life be wrong?"
The answer is that it doesn't matter. We must humble ourselves and realize there are real evil forces at work trying to lead us astray, confuse our faith and pit us against one another. We must be aware and seek only God's truth and not our own, or the truths of men who society recognizes as "religious" authorities. Remember, the Pharisees were religious authorities too. Read and study how Jesus spoke and regarded them. I believe they still exist today. Instead of robes, the wear $1000 tailored suits payed for by your "tithes".
Here is the crux. There cannot be to translations that are true, only one is true. We must use the transcriptions from the original greek and hebrew texts and accept the one true meaning of the scripture. If there is conflict and doubt supported by "contradicting" scripture, we must realize that God and the original scriptures are NOT contradictory, just man's translations of them are. Otherwise, how can we really trust and believe in God's word?
As we have read, Jesus has subjected himself as subordiante to the Father in countless verses. What does this mean? Is Jesus contradicting himself or God? This is impossible. Only OUR interpretations are flawed and contradictory. There can only be one truth. We must study diligently and pray for discernment and wisdom, and most importantly, we must always seek the truth no matter what long-held beliefs we may have had. Our egos get in the way of finding truth because we tell ourselves "how can something that I've known or been taught my whole life be wrong?"
The answer is that it doesn't matter. We must humble ourselves and realize there are real evil forces at work trying to lead us astray, confuse our faith and pit us against one another. We must be aware and seek only God's truth and not our own, or the truths of men who society recognizes as "religious" authorities. Remember, the Pharisees were religious authorities too. Read and study how Jesus spoke and regarded them. I believe they still exist today. Instead of robes, the wear $1000 tailored suits payed for by your "tithes".
Sorry but it does, if you don't have the Son then you don't have the Father.
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