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Old 02-17-2009, 09:55 AM
 
Location: God's Country
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sherryturner View Post
ILNC,
Thank you for your insight...I will read more. It's it amazing when one encourages the other to read the word? I pray you are right....but if you are not, I pray that you will stand strong in your faith. on that note, I will indeed read more..I had assumed that the bowls of wrath did not start until this seventh angel blew the trumpet. So what you write is questioning to me. I will only gain this understanding through reading and praying myself. Thank you.
At least you are one who does not say something and then just disreguard other scripture. This, in itself, is glorifying to God.
I do not say anything to take faith from others...believe with your heart..with every breath you take.
For some reason, I have worried for those who don't think things are coming to pass as He promised.
Take Care and know I am thinking of Him...and you as I continue my day at work. I will read while I'm at work...I pray He allows me this time to spend with Him if it is His will.
Sherry
Sherry I know the Lord is going to bless you as study His Word because He said He will in Rev 1:3. Remember ask and keep asking, search and keep searching, knock and keep knocking. Scripture always back up Scripture. Pray and let the Holy Spirit guide you into all truth! I will be praying for you my dear friend!
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
The rapture is part of the first resurrection (which happens at the end of the Trib. and before the Mill.- it is for those who are alive and remain at the coming (parousia) of our Lord.

Jesus will return at the end of the tribulation - this is clear in the Scriptures.
Where?

Preterist
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
I am not going to debate you on this but I do have a question. There are many verses that have the lord declaring that the faithful will be saved from the tribulation, can we really come up with a definite conclusion of when the rapture will occur without contradicting scripture? What would the purpose be to rapture just before the Mill.?

I have studied several different perspectives on the rapture and honestly I just do not know for sure when it will happen but I do choose to be alert and am willing to suffer if need be.
Greetings, RobinD69: Who are the recipients of Paul's letters to the Thessalonians? When Paul wrote "WE who are alive and remain," to whom was he referring? What was the significance of Paul's words to those very flesh-and-blood Thessalonians--"Therefore, comfort one another with these words?" They were suffering horrendous persecutions and sufferings, often onto death. They, along with Paul and all other saints of that day, expected personal relief from that suffering--at Christ's coming to avenge them in their lifetime. That is the context!

Those very Thessalonians were suffering great persecution and tribulation. Those very Thessalonians were promised relief from that suffering "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels" (2 Thes. 1)! The Lord could only be revealed in one particular setting--to give relief to those particular living Thessalonians and to mete out vengeance against those particular ones who were persecuting those particular Thessalonians of Paul's day! It was to them that He came with His angels in vengeance (see Matthew 23) and brought relief.

The "rapture" passages involve those saints of that first-century,pre-A. D. 70 world and none other!

In Christ, Preterist
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 4,901,103 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Greetings, RobinD69: Who are the recipients of Paul's letters to the Thessalonians? When Paul wrote "WE who are alive and remain," to whom was he referring? What was the significance of Paul's words to those very flesh-and-blood Thessalonians--"Therefore, comfort one another with these words?" They were suffering horrendous persecutions and sufferings, often onto death. They, along with Paul and all other saints of that day, expected personal relief from that suffering--at Christ's coming to avenge them in their lifetime. That is the context!

Those very Thessalonians were suffering great persecution and tribulation. Those very Thessalonians were promised relief from that suffering "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels" (2 Thes. 1)! The Lord could only be revealed in one particular setting--to give relief to those particular living Thessalonians and to mete out vengeance against those particular ones who were persecuting those particular Thessalonians of Paul's day! It was to them that He came with His angels in vengeance (see Matthew 23) and brought relief.

The "rapture" passages involve those saints of that first-century,pre-A. D. 70 world and none other!

In Christ, Preterist
No disreapect Preterist, but we have covered this numerous times and neither of us could agree. I will say that I believe you are limiting the Lords power.
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Yes the first resurrection is spoken of here:

Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be
changed.

I wrote about the word 'we' in the other thread.See below:

Interesting remark. Let me add some food for thought here...

Mr 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Notice something very interesting here. The angels are gathering His elect from heaven and from earth.

2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

His return at the 7th trump.

1 Thess. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not *prevent them which are asleep.

*prevent means to preceed or go before.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall *rise first:

*rise means to resurrect.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I content the 'we' and the 'our' is the 'elect' in both
Mr 13:272 and Thess. 2:1. So that is why Paul used the word 'we.' He was the 'elect' of his time and the 'elect' who are gathered at the 7th trump would also be called 'we,'... i. e. the elect.

BTW. I don't believe Paul taught a rapture as it is presented in most churches. I believe he taught a gathering of the elect from both heaven (the dead in Christ) and the elect (alive and remain) when He descends ( means to step down) to the earth and these elect, both will *meet Him and escort Him back to the earth.

*meet has the meaning of a delegation going out to meet a dignatary and escorting him home.


also when one steps down they don't stop 1/2 way or reverse their direction.
Hello, mshipmate: Please interpret 2 Thessalonians 1. Paul promised those particular Thessalonians that they would personally receive relief from their great suffering when Jesus was revealed from heaven! Jesus was to come to take out His vengeance on those particular persecutors of those particular Thessalonians and other saints of that day! That is the context. That is the audience relevance.

Furthermore, I think your understanding of "we" comes not from the text itself but out of a necessity to shore up your position. But Paul was not writing to offer comfort to any other group of saints than those very saints of his day who were undergoing terrible persecution. 2 Thessalonians 1 makes it amply clear that Jesus was to come to those very saints of that day to bring to them relief from their suffering and to take vengeance on those who persecuted them. While there are applications to us today, we are not the subject of Paul's words nor the direct recipients.

We must accept the context of passages and the audience relevance. When Paul wrote "we," he clearly meant himself, the Thessalonians, and all living saints of that day. That is the only authentication for the comfort which he provided. If those particular saints of that day were not given relief and avenged, there was no comfort!

Again, 2 Thessalonians is clear. Jesus was to come with His angels to that particular group of believers to whom He offered relief from suffering and vindication.

In Christ, Preterist
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:23 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,035,606 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Hi Robin,
Could you give me a couple examples of which Scriptures you mean so I see where you're coming from? Thx.

Edited to add...Sorry I see I didn't answer your question.



Well, my answer to that would be...we aren't going to be 'raptured' from the earth. Yes, we will be seized, snatched by the angels and gathered back to Jesus, but that will happen in the air right above the earth. Then we will descend down with Him and He will set up His Mill. kingdom. There is of course more to it than that, but that is the long and short of it.
Scripture?
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:27 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,035,606 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilvan View Post
The Rapture will happen after the Great Tribulation... but before the 7 Vials containing the Wrath of God are poured down. It is part of the "Gathering of the Saints" which also includes the Resurrection of the elect. The Rapture is really an instantaneous death and resurrection of the living elect, at the "twinkling of an eye".

The purpose of the "Gathering of the Saints" is to raise the RULING TEAM of Jesus Christ to rule in the Millennium. These elect will be the kings and priests while Jesus Christ will be the High Priest and King of kings to rule over the humans on earth for 1000 years.

The Bible said the elect will be protected and saved from the Great Tribulation. They are the 144000 virgin men from the 12 Tribes of Israel and the "Woman" of Rev 12. In the end time, God will send a true Prophet to call them out (Malachi 4:5).

The 144000 will be sealed with the Name of God on their foreheads by an angel (fulfillment of Pentecost). The seal is for their protection as they go out to the World, 2 by 2, to 1.) preach the Gospel, 2.) warn the people of "Mystery Babylon" of the coming judgment, and 3.) warn against taking the Mark of the Beast (messages of the 3 angels in Rev 14:6-9).

The "Woman" will be given the "Great Wings of an Eagle" so she could go hide in the wilderness of Jordan (Edom, Moab, Ammon) for 3.5 years which is the entire duration of the Great Tribulation. The Bible told us Satan will try to drown them with a flood but the earth will miraculously open up and swallow the flood. God promised to protect and "nourish" them in the wilderness (Manna?).

After the Great Tribulation... God will send the angels to gather them in the Rapture. Notice the "angels" in plural... that means the 144000 are then scattered all over the World and the "Woman" in Jordan will be raptured and rise up to the sky to meet Jesus Christ in the clouds. This Gathering of the Saints will happen on the Feast of Trumpets. 10 days later, on the Day of Atonement, JC and the elect will touch down on Mt.Olives, they will fight the 200 Million army of the Antichrist in the Battle of Armageddon!
Greetings wilvan: You are aware that the passages you use to support a future rapture are found in a book that clearly stated that the events were going to happen shortly in John's day--because the time was then near? The book of Revelation refers completely to past events and to nothing in our day and age. Read Revelation 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10!

Notice also that in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 the subject involves the "we"--Paul and those living saints of his day! They were to be changed; they were to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, etc.! That is the context. That is the audience relevance. We cannot ignore such things and hope to understand.

In Christ, Preterist
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 4,901,103 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Hello, mshipmate: Please interpret 2 Thessalonians 1. Paul promised those particular Thessalonians that they would personally receive relief from their great suffering when Jesus was revealed from heaven! Jesus was to come to take out His vengeance on those particular persecutors of those particular Thessalonians and other saints of that day! That is the context. That is the audience relevance.

Furthermore, I think your understanding of "we" comes not from the text itself but out of a necessity to shore up your position. But Paul was not writing to offer comfort to any other group of saints than those very saints of his day who were undergoing terrible persecution. 2 Thessalonians 1 makes it amply clear that Jesus was to come to those very saints of that day to bring to them relief from their suffering and to take vengeance on those who persecuted them. While there are applications to us today, we are not the subject of Paul's words nor the direct recipients.

We must accept the context of passages and the audience relevance. When Paul wrote "we," he clearly meant himself, the Thessalonians, and all living saints of that day. That is the only authentication for the comfort which he provided. If those particular saints of that day were not given relief and avenged, there was no comfort!

Again, 2 Thessalonians is clear. Jesus was to come with His angels to that particular group of believers to whom He offered relief from suffering and vindication.

In Christ, Preterist
I am sorry but I just have to ask a few questions.

If everything in the Bible was fulfilled completely by 70AD then why are we still here suffering?

If everything was fulfilled by 70AD, then why are we not in paradise?

If everything was fulfilled by 70AD, what is the need of the Bible?

If everything was fulfilled by 70AD, why is Satan still loose?

Please, I would really like to know your answers to these questions.
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Old 02-17-2009, 02:15 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,035,606 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sherryturner View Post
ILNC,
I have studied...but I have a question...
one verse at a time though..I only have few a minutes right now and may not even get to them all
Thess 4:17
If you read Thess 4:16
It says:
(NIV) For the Lord himself come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Thes 4:17
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the lord forever...

okay
Now I can read Rev and find where this occurs in line with the trumpets

Rev 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kindgdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

Rev 11:16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,

11:17 saying:"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.

11:18 The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great-and for destroying those who destroy the earth.

Anyway, my time is running short...my point is the dead in Christ shall rise first. This comes back to me everytime I think of maybe He is going to take us early.

Rev 11:18 is just as the seventh trumpet is blown. or is this not your opinion?

I have prayed..
I'd like to believe what you believe. But I do not find myself able to because of these verses.
Now, I do believe we are here for the majority of the tribulation...but not during the wrath of God.--(while he is destroying those who destroy the earth)

I hesitated before posting this here on the open forum.
I know how things get sometimes here.


Take Care,
Sherry
Hello, Sherry: I would encourage you to seriously consider the audience relevance and the context of the passages that were given to you in isolation:

1 Thessalonians was written to Paul to the Thessalonians. Why did he write to them? What was going on in their lives? What did his words mean to them? Whom did Paul mean by "we?" Those very Thessalonians were undergoing terrible persecution and suffering, oftentimes unto death! Paul wrote to comfort them. If they are not personally comforted by the fulfillment of his words in their lifetime, then there is no comfort and he should never have written "therefore, comfort one another with these words." When Paul wrote "we," he meant himself, the Thessalonians and all those saints of that day! That is the context. We must begin there.

What about John 14? Whom does Jesus seek to comfort? Was it not those very disciples with Him? Why were they troubled? Because He was going away! From what other generation has Jesus gone away and offered comfort at His return? Has any other generation of disciples been troubled in that way? No! It was to them that He said "Let not your hearts be troubled." Also, who are the "you" of John 14? His disciples are right there with Him when He says directly to them--"I go away to prepare a place for you. And if I go away and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, [1 Thes. 4!], that where I am, there you may be also." Does this exclude us? Certainly not! But they were the firstfruits of Christ's promises. We must keep in mind that up until this time, all who died went to Sheol (Hades) to await His coming. Their place with Him in heaven was not yet prepared. When He came for them (ca. A. D. 70), Hades was emptied and all those saints living and dead went to be with Him in the place He had prepared for them. All who die in Christ since that time now go directly into His presence--there is no waiting period. The reason their hearts could be untroubled was because He was coming personally for them! That promise was the great motivator for them in their times of distress and suffering!

Revelation 3 must be seen in the time frame clearly established in both the first and last chapter of the book. John was shown those things which were in his day to shortly take place because the time was then near (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10). The events of the book deal with the Jewish Wars (A. D. 68-70) and the coming of Christ to bring relief to His saints and vengeance upon those who persecuted and killed them (see 2 Thes. 1).

Matthew 24 must be seen in the time frame clearly established there--"this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." Also, there are at least 20 "yous" in this passage. Jesus is telling those particular disciples with Him about things that were to directly happen to them. They were to hear of wars and rumors of wars; they were to witness earthquakes and famines and pestilences; they were to see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet; they were to recognize the signs of His coming as clearly as they recognized the coming of summer in the budding of the fig tree (Luke adds "and all the trees"--Luke 21). All of these things which were to impact them were to happen in that generation.

In the context of Jude 14, Jude is warning those of his day of the ungodly and mockers, people the apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ had warned them such would come in the last time (their time). In contrast to the ungodly and mockers, Jude writes, "but, you, beloved!" In context, then, Jude's words are a warning to his generation which was living in the time during which the Lord would come "with ten thousands of his saints."

I look forward to hearing the results of your study.

In Christ, Preterist
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Old 02-17-2009, 02:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
Sherry I know the Lord is going to bless you as study His Word because He said He will in Rev 1:3. Remember ask and keep asking, search and keep searching, knock and keep knocking. Scripture always back up Scripture. Pray and let the Holy Spirit guide you into all truth! I will be praying for you my dear friend!
That's a good verse, ILNC. It also says, "the time is near!"

Preterist
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