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Old 02-17-2009, 03:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
No disreapect Preterist, but we have covered this numerous times and neither of us could agree. I will say that I believe you are limiting the Lords power.
How, RobinD69. Again, sadly, you do not deal with the Scriptures. It is the Word itself that does the limiting, not me.

Preterist
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Old 02-17-2009, 03:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Hello, mshipmate: Please interpret 2 Thessalonians 1. Paul promised those particular Thessalonians that they would personally receive relief from their great suffering when Jesus was revealed from heaven! Jesus was to come to take out His vengeance on those particular persecutors of those particular Thessalonians and other saints of that day! That is the context. That is the audience relevance.

Furthermore, I think your understanding of "we" comes not from the text itself but out of a necessity to shore up your position. But Paul was not writing to offer comfort to any other group of saints than those very saints of his day who were undergoing terrible persecution. 2 Thessalonians 1 makes it amply clear that Jesus was to come to those very saints of that day to bring to them relief from their suffering and to take vengeance on those who persecuted them. While there are applications to us today, we are not the subject of Paul's words nor the direct recipients.

We must accept the context of passages and the audience relevance. When Paul wrote "we," he clearly meant himself, the Thessalonians, and all living saints of that day. That is the only authentication for the comfort which he provided. If those particular saints of that day were not given relief and avenged, there was no comfort!

Again, 2 Thessalonians is clear. Jesus was to come with His angels to that particular group of believers to whom He offered relief from suffering and vindication.

In Christ, Preterist
Quote:
Hello, mshipmate: Please interpret 2 Thessalonians 1. Paul promised those particular Thessalonians that they would personally receive relief from their great suffering when Jesus was revealed from heaven! Jesus was to come to take out His vengeance on those particular persecutors of those particular Thessalonians and other saints of that day! That is the context. That is the audience relevance.
Preterist,
Let me say first Preterist I am quite certain I won't be able to change your mind because I sense your mind is closed on this subject, and for that I am very sad, I will however answer your challenge for the benifit of those who's mind's are open to the truth.

You told me to interpret 2 Thess. 1. So I will....Because of space I won't paste the first 3 verses since they are bascially Paul's greetings to them. So let's pick up with v. 4:

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Self explanitory I would say.

5 ∂ Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Paul is telling them that because of their patience and faith they will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God.

This next v. is a key verse to understanding what Paul is telling them:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to *recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

*recompense #467, to requite, repay.

vs. 7-8 are even more important to our undestanding:

7 And to you who are troubled *rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

*rest, anesis #425 relief, eased, forbear, with the idea of 'liberty'

So we see in the meaning of the word 'rest' Paul is telling them their 'problems' will be eased, and vengeance given ... BUT....when?

You insist it happened back then. However the Word tells us it hasn't happened yet. God will recompense, repay, get vengenance, etc etc, ON THAT DAY.

What day? The day of Christ's glorious return when the Heaven's open, the 7th trump sounds, etc etc...

8 In flaming fire taking *vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

*vengeance

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD’S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion

Isa 35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Ro 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
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Old 02-17-2009, 03:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
I am sorry but I just have to ask a few questions.

If everything in the Bible was fulfilled completely by 70AD then why are we still here suffering?

If everything was fulfilled by 70AD, then why are we not in paradise?

If everything was fulfilled by 70AD, what is the need of the Bible?

If everything was fulfilled by 70AD, why is Satan still loose?

Please, I would really like to know your answers to these questions.
Greetings, RobinD69: You only expect to find no suffering because you look for some end of time or end of the world. The Scriptures nowhere teach such a thing. In the kingdom which is not of this world, there is no suffering. We need the Scriptures for the very reason that there is no end of the world. The world goes on.

Furthermore, who says Satan is still loose? Again, you are looking for an end-of-time scenario. Paul, in Romans 16:20, clearly stated that "the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly." Whose feet? Those to whom Paul was writing--those of his day. The Devil has been judged and cast into the Lake of fire. That events fall into the time frame established in the book of Revelation itself--the things which were to shortly take place because the time was near!

Again, all your questions stem from your presupposition that at the parousia Jesus would bring an end to the world. The only thing that ended was the age of Judaism--that which was already in that generation growing old, becoming obsolete, and ready to pass away (Heb. 8). It was the end of the age and not the end of the world which was the subject of the disciples' question in Matthew 24.

The new heavens and new earth are symbolic. There is to be no destruction of the literal heavens and earth. The old represented those things of the Old Covenant and the new represent those things of the New Covenant. The old heavens and old earth have passed away. They did so when the new covenant was fully established once and for all when Christ came in judgment in A. D. 70 and brought to a final end "the power of the holy people" (Daniel 12).

Also, there is no longer Paradise. That was the place of waiting (Sheol, Hades) until Christ finished His work, brought judgment on the righteous and wicked, and brought to pass the resurrection of the saints in their glorified, heavenly bodies (1 Cor. 15; Acts 17 and Acts 24:15, 25). If Christ has not yet come, we cannot properly say that any saint is in heaven.

In Christ, Preterist
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Old 02-17-2009, 03:53 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,037,129 times
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Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Preterist,
Let me say first Preterist I am quite certain I won't be able to change your mind because I sense your mind is closed on this subject, and for that I am very sad, I will however answer your challenge for the benifit of those who's mind's are open to the truth.

You told me to interpret 2 Thess. 1. So I will....Because of space I won't paste the first 3 verses since they are bascially Paul's greetings to them. So let's pick up with v. 4:

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Self explanitory I would say.

5 ∂ Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Paul is telling them that because of their patience and faith they will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God.

This next v. is a key verse to understanding what Paul is telling them:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to *recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

*recompense #467, to requite, repay.

vs. 7-8 are even more important to our undestanding:

7 And to you who are troubled *rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

*rest, anesis #425 relief, eased, forbear, with the idea of 'liberty'

So we see in the meaning of the word 'rest' Paul is telling them their 'problems' will be eased, and vengeance given ... BUT....when?

You insist it happened back then. However the Word tells us it hasn't happened yet. God will recompense, repay, get vengenance, etc etc, ON THAT DAY.

What day? The day of Christ's glorious return when the Heaven's open, the 7th trump sounds, etc etc...

8 In flaming fire taking *vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

*vengeance

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORDíS vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion

Isa 35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Ro 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
mshipmate: With all due respect, why am I always the one being portrayed as close-minded? Have you changed your mind on any of these things? Are you not also justifiably accused of not being willing to change your mind?

mshipmate: I am only insisting that it happened then because the word clearly says that it did. Yet for that I am accused of being close-minded.

Who was to receive relief at His coming, mshipmate? Was it not those very living, breathing Thessalonians to whom Paul was writing? The only way God can give that promised relief to those very Thessalonians is if they are alive at the time and undergoing tribulation and persecution WHEN HE COMES. Upon whom was God's vengeance to come? Was it not on those very apostate Jews of that day who were persecuting and killing those very Thessalonians and the other saints? Look at the words of the passage, mshipmate. Why should I change my mind when the words are clear?

What does the passage say?

"Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them who trouble you." Who are the "them" and the "you" mshipmate? The verse is clear. God was going to repay with tribulation those very persecutors of those very living, breathing Thessalonians of that day to whom Paul is writing!

Who are the "you who are troubled," mshipmate? Are they not those very living, breathing Thessalonians to whom Paul is writing? Those very living, breathing Thessalonians of that day were to be personally given relief from their suffering "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels."

There are only two ways of looking at this passage. God came in vengeance against the very ones who persecuted and killed those very Thessalonians to whom Paul was writing or at some future date those very Thessalonians must be brought back to life and be persecuted and killed so that the Lord can come back to them and give them relief. That is what is taught here, mshipmate. Why should I change my mind?

I am not unwilling to change my mind, but I am rarely given good exegetical and scripture-backed arguments against my positions. I merely ask that people who disagree with me take the words in their context while giving attention to audience relevance.

I am seen as unwilling to change my mind, but the fact remains that so many will not deal with the words of passages. If I were not willing to change my mind, mshipmate, I would still be deceived, pre-trib., pre-mil dispensationalist! I care only for truth!

In Christ, Preterist
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Old 02-17-2009, 04:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
mshipmate: With all due respect, why am I always the one being portrayed as close-minded? Have you changed your mind on any of these things? Are you not also justifiably accused of not being willing to change your mind?

mshipmate: I am only insisting that it happened then because the word clearly says that it did. Yet for that I am accused of being close-minded.

Who was to receive relief at His coming, mshipmate? Was it not those very living, breathing Thessalonians to whom Paul was writing? The only way God can give that promised relief to those very Thessalonians is if they are alive at the time and undergoing tribulation and persecution WHEN HE COMES. Upon whom was God's vengeance to come? Was it not on those very apostate Jews of that day who were persecuting and killing those very Thessalonians and the other saints? Look at the words of the passage, mshipmate. Why should I change my mind when the words are clear?

What does the passage say?

"Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them who trouble you." Who are the "them" and the "you" mshipmate? The verse is clear. God was going to repay with tribulation those very persecutors of those very living, breathing Thessalonians of that day to whom Paul is writing!

Who are the "you who are troubled," mshipmate? Are they not those very living, breathing Thessalonians to whom Paul is writing? Those very living, breathing Thessalonians of that day were to be personally given relief from their suffering "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels."

There are only two ways of looking at this passage. God came in vengeance against the very ones who persecuted and killed those very Thessalonians to whom Paul was writing or at some future date those very Thessalonians must be brought back to life and be persecuted and killed so that the Lord can come back to them and give them relief. That is what is taught here, mshipmate. Why should I change my mind?

I am not unwilling to change my mind, but I am rarely given good exegetical and scripture-backed arguments against my positions. I merely ask that people who disagree with me take the words in their context while giving attention to audience relevance.

I am seen as unwilling to change my mind, but the fact remains that so many will not deal with the words of passages. If I were not willing to change my mind, mshipmate, I would still be deceived, pre-trib., pre-mil dispensationalist! I care only for truth!

In Christ, Preterist
I say you are closed minded because you don't read what I write. How do I know this because you just go on and on with your ideas.

The Thess. would be in this category:
Re 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree, but for the record I am neither decieved, pre-trib, pre-mil or dipensational, and I also care ONLY for the truth. And I am afraid, Preterist in you 'hurry' to disregard the above you have "thrown out the proverbial baby with the bath water."

Last edited by mshipmate; 02-17-2009 at 04:23 PM..
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Old 02-17-2009, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
How, RobinD69. Again, sadly, you do not deal with the Scriptures. It is the Word itself that does the limiting, not me.

Preterist
I have before but I have found with you it really doesnt matter because you are set in your first century ways.
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Old 02-17-2009, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Greetings, RobinD69: You only expect to find no suffering because you look for some end of time or end of the world. The Scriptures nowhere teach such a thing. In the kingdom which is not of this world, there is no suffering. We need the Scriptures for the very reason that there is no end of the world. The world goes on.
Not really, I know this is a world without end, but where is the new heaven and new earth that has been promised?

Quote:
Furthermore, who says Satan is still loose? Again, you are looking for an end-of-time scenario. Paul, in Romans 16:20, clearly stated that "the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly." Whose feet? Those to whom Paul was writing--those of his day. The Devil has been judged and cast into the Lake of fire. That events fall into the time frame established in the book of Revelation itself--the things which were to shortly take place because the time was near!
Ok, so why do we still have weapons and war? Why doesnt the lion lay with the sheep and eat hay? Why cant a child play with a snake without getting bit?

Quote:
Again, all your questions stem from your presupposition that at the parousia Jesus would bring an end to the world. The only thing that ended was the age of Judaism--that which was already in that generation growing old, becoming obsolete, and ready to pass away (Heb. 8). It was the end of the age and not the end of the world which was the subject of the disciples' question in Matthew 24.
So long as sin still occures Satan is still around.

Quote:
The new heavens and new earth are symbolic. There is to be no destruction of the literal heavens and earth. The old represented those things of the Old Covenant and the new represent those things of the New Covenant. The old heavens and old earth have passed away. They did so when the new covenant was fully established once and for all when Christ came in judgment in A. D. 70 and brought to a final end "the power of the holy people" (Daniel 12).
I cannot accept this, you are too quick to symbolize everything, Christ did real things throughout history and to symbolize everything or spiritualize everything is to do a disservice to the miracles of the past and present.

Quote:
Also, there is no longer Paradise. That was the place of waiting (Sheol, Hades) until Christ finished His work, brought judgment on the righteous and wicked, and brought to pass the resurrection of the saints in their glorified, heavenly bodies (1 Cor. 15; Acts 17 and Acts 24:15, 25). If Christ has not yet come, we cannot properly say that any saint is in heaven.

In Christ, Preterist
I am sorry but by symbolizing everything you miss the truth. By symbolizing everything there is no purpose for today or tommorrow.
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Old 02-17-2009, 08:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Where?

Preterist
Don't patranize me you know exactly what I am talking about - if you have somthing useful to post do it.
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Old 02-17-2009, 09:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
You make some good points and as I said I am not here to debate but lets try Rev. 3:10, and Luke 21:36 just to name 2, I still do not have my notes, got busy with something else last night. As I said before there are many good theories for all sides and I am prepared for any of the theories to be proven, this is why we must remain vigilant because we do not know for certain but we can hope and pray.
Alright first lets look at some contextual issues in Luke 21:36.

Note verse 34's warning not to be weiged down with the cares of the world.... and that Day - what Day? comes upon you [that is those who have been weiged down by those things] unexpectedly.The answer of what that Day is is in verses 27-33. The second coming not the tribulation. (although it is possible that it is the whole period but it does not matter see below)

Now note verse 35 for it [that Day - the second coming] will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the earth.

Now look at verse 36 - the exhortation is to watch and be ready so that the Day does not become a snare to you who are ready.

The phrase 'worthy to escape' is unfortunate because it gives the idea that someone is righteouse and therefore will escape the things coming upon the earth. The word worthy is katischusete and speaks of someone having strength, or ability to prevail over, overcome, be fully able, and strong enough. It does not speak of your worhtiness in regard to righteousness.

The word escape can have the connatation of fleeing from - 'Therefore, be alert at all times, praying that you may have the strength to escape [flee from] all these things that will take place and to stand before the Son of man.' see verse 21 where they flee into the wilderness.

Note that nowhere does the context necessitate that in order to escape you have to be removed from the earth prior to the tribulation even if we are to take the Day as the whole period.

Lastly verses 20 -24 speak of the middle of the tribulation when Juruslaem is surrounded and the inhabitants flee in to the wilderness (for 42 months [Rev.12].)

The point is those who are prepared and ready and watching will not have that day (or the things associated with it) come upon them as a snare. Because they are ready they will have the strength to escape and overcome the deception and the trial of those days and the Judgement of the wicked at His coming.

I will post some more on the Rev. passage later.
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Old 02-17-2009, 09:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Alright first lets look at some contextual issues in Luke 21:36.

Note verse 34's warning not to be weiged down with the cares of the world.... and that Day - what Day? comes upon you [that is those who have been weiged down by those things] unexpectedly.The answer of what that Day is is in verses 27-33. The second coming not the tribulation. (although it is possible that it is the whole period but it does not matter see below)

Now note verse 35 for it [that Day - the second coming] will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the earth.

Now look at verse 36 - the exhortation is to watch and be ready so that the Day does not become a snare to you who are ready.

The phrase 'worthy to escape' is unfortunate because it gives the idea that someone is righteouse and therefore will escape the things coming upon the earth. The word worthy is katischusete and speaks of someone having strength, or ability to prevail over, overcome, be fully able, and strong enough. It does not speak of your worhtiness in regard to righteousness.

The word escape can have the connatation of fleeing from - 'Therefore, be alert at all times, praying that you may have the strength to escape [flee from] all these things that will take place and to stand before the Son of man.' see verse 21 where they flee into the wilderness.

Note that nowhere does the context necessitate that in order to escape you have to be removed from the earth prior to the tribulation even if we are to take the Day as the whole period.

Lastly verses 20 -24 speak of the middle of the tribulation when Juruslaem is surrounded and the inhabitants flee in to the wilderness (for 42 months [Rev.12].)

The point is those who are prepared and ready and watching will not have that day (or the things associated with it) come upon them as a snare. Because they are ready they will have the strength to escape and overcome the deception and the trial of those days and the Judgement of the wicked at His coming.

I will post some more on the Rev. passage later.
Quote:
'Therefore, be alert at all times, praying that you may have the strength to escape [flee from] all these things that will take place and to stand before the Son of man.'



Very good post. I agree except for the fleeing to the wilderness. Note it says we will STAND before the Son of man.

Eph 6:13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to *stand.

*stand 2476. histemi his'-tay-mee a prolonged form of a primary stao stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively):--abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare 5087.
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