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Old 02-18-2009, 09:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jennaflorrie View Post
I believe that the rapture will come BEFORE the tribulation starts. For starters - how would the rapture at the END of the trib. be like Jesus like a thief in the night? It would hardly be unexpected! We would all be waiting for it - if there were any christians left that is. Also, God has a histroy of removing his people BEFORE the big judgemnts start - for instance - Noah and the Flood. Soddom and Gom. God will REMOVE his people before the trib. This will also go with the scripture that says "that which must be removed before he is revelaed" I believe that speaks about the Church and the Holy Spirit within the true Christians which must be removed before the antichrist is revealed.

We are to be like the wise virgins in the new testament who were watching and waiting - if the rapture were post trib - the virigns would be exterminated OR there would be no need to warn them to be watching and waiting......it would be expected that the rapture would take place.
The Rapture will take place very soon I think, but it will be UNEXPECTED!!! There will be shock, disbelief - and it will set the scene for some world leader 'antichrist' to come along - soothing a troubled, distressed world that has just witnessed the most remarkable event ever!!!! The disappearance of millions of people. The antichrist will come up with some explanation - and people will willingly get 'chipped' with the number of the beast, afraid that they too will be removed to some place............so, as you can tell, I am 100% for the Pre-Trib rapture theory.
First regarding the theif motif - I encourage you to do a study of every time that phrase is used. One absolute proof againt the pretrib explanation of the thief being at the begining of the trib is Rev.16:15 - Jesus has yet to come as a theif all the way through the whole tribulation period upto the 7th bowl - explain that one? Why would Jesus or the NT describe the Rapture as thief - that is a negative term not a positive one. As others have said the only ones who experience the Lords coming as a thief are the one who are not ready, watching, waiting, or prepared - that is why the second coming is like a thief for the wicked not the righteouss. I am seriously astounded at the lack of posters on here who do not have a teachable spirit. The wicked get plundered and robbed of their humanistic hopes and judge for their rejection of the prophets and the saints proclamation of Jesus' return. The idea of the rapture is not one of unexpectedness - you confuse the thief motif with the rapture - the unexpectedness is for those who are not looking for His second coming that is why he comes as a thief to them not us (read I Thees.5).

Second, regarding Noah and the Flood, please read the passage carefully. Noah was not raptured and the flood is likened to the second coming not the Tribulation. That is Jesus said: The Flood = The Coming of the Son of Man. Now notice that in Genesis Noah went into the Ark 7 days prior to the Flood. The Ark is a type of Christ. Those who are in Christ 7 years prior to the Flood - the Second coming, will be prepared for His Judgment because they heeded the warning unlike those who did not and therefore did not expect Judgment and hence were taken in Judgment when the flood came - that is when the second comning came. As far as Lot is concerned he was not raptured but was moved away from the Judgment or spared from it - that is the second coming Judgment not the tribulation.

Third, as far as II Thess.2:1-12 that will take a little explaining but I assure you your take is contrived and is a classic example of eisigesis. I will post seperatly on that one.

Fourth, the virgins are a parable regarding the second coming not the rapture. Where do you get this stuff? They were prepared for the Bridegroom because they had they lamps filled with oil (the Spirit). Ask yourself this - when is the Wedding Feast in the Book of Revelation? - answer at the end of the tribualtion. Ask youself this - where is the Wedding Feast? - answer on Earth before they go into the Kingdom not in heaven.

I pray you see clearly these truths.
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:18 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,592,460 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
First regarding the theif motif - I encourage you to do a study of every time that phrase is used. One absolute proof againt the pretrib explanation of the thief being at the begining of the trib is Rev.16:15 - Jesus has yet to come as a theif all the way through the whole tribulation period upto the 7th bowl - explain that one? Why would Jesus or the NT describe the Rapture as thief - that is a negative term not a positive one. As others have said the only ones who experience the Lords coming as a thief are the one who are not ready, watching, waiting, or prepared - that is why the second coming is like a thief for the wicked not the righteouss. I am seriously astounded at the lack of posters on here who do not have a teachable spirit. The wicked get plundered and robbed of their humanistic hopes and judge for their rejection of the prophets and the saints proclamation of Jesus' return. The idea of the rapture is not one of unexpectedness - you confuse the thief motif with the rapture - the unexpectedness is for those who are not looking for His second coming that is why he comes as a thief to them not us (read I Thees.5).

Second, regarding Noah and the Flood, please read the passage carefully. Noah was not raptured and the flood is likened to the second coming not the Tribulation. That is Jesus said: The Flood = The Coming of the Son of Man. Now notice that in Genesis Noah went into the Ark 7 days prior to the Flood. The Ark is a type of Christ. Those who are in Christ 7 years prior to the Flood - the Second coming, will be prepared for His Judgment because they heeded the warning unlike those who did not and therefore did not expect Judgment and hence were taken in Judgment when the flood came - that is when the second comning came. As far as Lot is concerned he was not raptured but was moved away from the Judgment or spared from it - that is the second coming Judgment not the tribulation.

Third, as far as II Thess.2:1-12 that will take a little explaining but I assure you your take is contrived and is a classic example of eisigesis. I will post seperatly on that one.

Fourth, the virgins are a parable regarding the second coming not the rapture. Where do you get this stuff? They were prepared for the Bridegroom because they had they lamps filled with oil (the Spirit). Ask yourself this - when is the Wedding Feast in the Book of Revelation? - answer at the end of the tribualtion. Ask youself this - where is the Wedding Feast? - answer on Earth before they go into the Kingdom not in heaven.

I pray you see clearly these truths.

Excellent post.
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Old 02-18-2009, 11:55 PM
 
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I totally agree. The rapture will happen and then the tribulation will begin. The tribulation which is also referred to in the Bible as "Jacob's Trouble" (Jacob is also know as Israel) is not intended for Christians. And I do have scripture to back me up...
In Daniel 9:24, Israel is given a certain amount of years that they will be "judged" (490 years, seven of which remain, i.e. the seven years of tribulation) and these are the reasons given for this judgement or wrath of God:
"to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness"

I don't have the scriptures here with me but you can find it in the new testament that each and every one of these things is accomplished in us through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Therefore we do not need to be subject to the Tribulation. I hope everyone makes their own peace with this question though since the scripture states that HE is coming back for a church "without spot or wrinkle" and only for those who are "waiting and watching."

But those are just my thoughts. Hope I was clear.. I tend to ramble and get carried away!!
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Old 02-19-2009, 01:17 AM
 
Location: Canada
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The Great Tribulation is only for the Christians not for the unbelievers. The Bible said during the reign of the Antichrist the World will be eating, drinking, marrying and giving into marriage; while the Christians will be hunted down for refusing the Mark of the Beast.

God will protect the 2 groups of elect (here on earth):

1.) The 144000 who are sealed with the Name of God on their foreheads for protection as they go out to the World in pairs to serve as witnesses.

2.) The "Woman" (Rev 12) which is the symbol of the true Church/true believers. They who obey the 10 Commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. They will be given the "Great wings of an eagle" (airlines?) to flee to the wilderness of Edom, Moab, and Ammon (Jordan), where they will be nourished and kept safe from the Great Tribulation.

After the Great Tribulation the elect will be raptured (Greek: Harpazo) in the Gathering of Saints; they will rise up to the sky to meet Christ in the clouds (Matt 24:29-31).

Many times in the Bible God has warned us against breaking his Law. The Christians who don't obey the 10 Commandments (Sabbath-breakers, worshippers of God's graven images, etc.) will be subjected to the trial of fire... beheading... so they could redeem themselves and be found worthy to be in the 1st Resurrection (Gathering of Saints). Read Rev 7... they are the "great multitude" who have washed their robes clean in the Great Tribulation!

---------------------------------
REV 7
9:
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10: And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb....

13: And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
---------------------------------
Matt 24
29:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31:And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Last edited by wilvan; 02-19-2009 at 01:44 AM.. Reason: edit length
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Old 02-19-2009, 01:09 PM
 
5,495 posts, read 4,399,555 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWaggoner View Post
I totally agree. The rapture will happen and then the tribulation will begin. The tribulation which is also referred to in the Bible as "Jacob's Trouble" (Jacob is also know as Israel) is not intended for Christians. And I do have scripture to back me up...
In Daniel 9:24, Israel is given a certain amount of years that they will be "judged" (490 years, seven of which remain, i.e. the seven years of tribulation) and these are the reasons given for this judgement or wrath of God:
"to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness"

I don't have the scriptures here with me but you can find it in the new testament that each and every one of these things is accomplished in us through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Therefore we do not need to be subject to the Tribulation. I hope everyone makes their own peace with this question though since the scripture states that HE is coming back for a church "without spot or wrinkle" and only for those who are "waiting and watching."

But those are just my thoughts. Hope I was clear.. I tend to ramble and get carried away!!
First, why do you assume that 'Jacob's Trouble' = the whole tribulation? In Daniel the Jews make a covenant with the man of lawlessness. It is only at the middle of the tribulation that the covenant is broken revealing who he really is. It is the last half of the tribulation that is known as Jacob's Trouble when the Antichrist's armies surround Jerusalem and the Jews have to flee into the wilderness for 42 months. If Jacob's Trouble is for the Jews only why do the Gentiles suffer the wrath of God as well? Why do you assume that Christians can not be here side by side when God finishes His puproses with the Jewish people - you assume that God cannot multi-task - as if we have to be removed from planet earth for God to accomplish His will with the Jewish people. Think about when this present Church age was inaugurated at Christ 1st coming - from the period of His resurrection until 70 A.D. Jews and The Church (Jew and Gentile in Christ) were side by side - why not during the comsummation of this age?

Second, you said that because of what Christ did for us we do not have to be subject to the Tribulation. You confuse The wrath of God with persucution and trials at the hands of the wicked. You act like just because people are going to get thier heads lopped off that this would constitute being subject to the wrath of God - WRONG. If we were not subject to such things because Christ died for us please explain the horrible deaths of millions of Christians throughout the centuries. Nowhere in the Book of Revelation do the 144,000 or the saints (whoever they are) suffer the wrath of God but they do suffer at the hands of the enemy - just like every other church age believer is promised in NT. I suggest you read some of the other post about the Scriptures that speak of Christians not suffering the wrath of God - none of them necessitate a removal from the earth in order not to partake of the wrath of God.

Third, you said he is coming back 'for' his church. Please show that in the Bible. And I do not mean the general concept but the preposition because pre-tribers make a huge deal out of the two preposition 'for' and 'with' in their literature. You are confusing your pre-trib infrences with what Scripture actually says. You assume the pre-trib position and therefore think that Jesus must come back 'for' His saints before He comes 'with' His saints. The rapture is what brings us to Christ when He is coming back to earth - we meet Him in the air along with the dead in Christ and hence return to Earth with Him and them - He comes with His saints. Nowhere does it say for His saints. Also, ask yourself why would Jesus start to descend (I Thess.4) and then turn around to go back to heaven? The meeting in the air has a technical aspect to it - it is the term used when people in a city went out of the city to greet a dignitary as the dignitary was approaching the city and then return to the city with Him. It is a perfect picture of the rapture and the immediate return of Christ not some 7 yr waiting-to-return between the two.

Be a Berean my brothers and sisters. Prayfully consider the Word of the Living God. Do not just trust or believe you teachers or pastors. It is my experience that many only present one aspect or side of the issue and people think it 'sounds right' but upon closer inspection it falls apart.
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Old 02-19-2009, 01:18 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,592,460 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
First, why do you assume that 'Jacob's Trouble' = the whole tribulation? In Daniel the Jews make a covenant with the man of lawlessness. It is only at the middle of the tribulation that the covenant is broken revealing who he really is. It is the last half of the tribulation that is known as Jacob's Trouble when the Antichrist's armies surround Jerusalem and the Jews have to flee into the wilderness for 42 months. If Jacob's Trouble is for the Jews only why do the Gentiles suffer the wrath of God as well? Why do you assume that Christians can not be here side by side when God finishes His puproses with the Jewish people - you assume that God cannot multi-task - as if we have to be removed from planet earth for God to accomplish His will with the Jewish people. Think about when this present Church age was inaugurated at Christ 1st coming - from the period of His resurrection until 70 A.D. Jews and The Church (Jew and Gentile in Christ) were side by side - why not during the comsummation of this age?

Second, you said that because of what Christ did for us we do not have to be subject to the Tribulation. You confuse The wrath of God with persucution and trials at the hands of the wicked. You act like just because people are going to get thier heads lopped off that this would constitute being subject to the wrath of God - WRONG. If we were not subject to such things because Christ died for us please explain the horrible deaths of millions of Christians throughout the centuries. Nowhere in the Book of Revelation do the 144,000 or the saints (whoever they are) suffer the wrath of God but they do suffer at the hands of the enemy - just like every other church age believer is promised in NT. I suggest you read some of the other post about the Scriptures that speak of Christians not suffering the wrath of God - none of them necessitate a removal from the earth in order not to partake of the wrath of God.

Third, you said he is coming back 'for' his church. Please show that in the Bible. And I do not mean the general concept but the preposition because pre-tribers make a huge deal out of the two preposition 'for' and 'with' in their literature. You are confusing your pre-trib infrences with what Scripture actually says. You assume the pre-trib position and therefore think that Jesus must come back 'for' His saints before He comes 'with' His saints. The rapture is what brings us to Christ when He is coming back to earth - we meet Him in the air along with the dead in Christ and hence return to Earth with Him and them - He comes with His saints. Nowhere does it say for His saints. Also, ask yourself why would Jesus start to descend (I Thess.4) and then turn around to go back to heaven? The meeting in the air has a technical aspect to it - it is the term used when people in a city went out of the city to greet a dignitary as the dignitary was approaching the city and then return to the city with Him. It is a perfect picture of the rapture and the immediate return of Christ not some 7 yr waiting-to-return between the two.

Be a Berean my brothers and sisters. Prayfully consider the Word of the Living God. Do not just trust or believe you teachers or pastors. It is my experience that many only present one aspect or side of the issue and people think it 'sounds right' but upon closer inspection it falls apart.
I'm in total agreement here. I've been posting similar things also. The point you made last night reminded me of an expression that had escaped my remembrance. You used the words "a teachable spirit"...that is the key!!
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Old 02-19-2009, 01:45 PM
 
5,495 posts, read 4,399,555 times
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Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
I'm in total agreement here. I've been posting similar things also. The point you made last night reminded me of an expression that had escaped my remembrance. You used the words "a teachable spirit"...that is the key!!
You are so right we all fall into it - we need to be prayful and open and honest. It is easy to want to be settled on an issue and not do an rigirous examination - we like to have all our ducks in order. I used to be pre-trib for 14 yrs then I studied for myself - I did not read any books on the issue. I was always taught to first read the Word not a commentary or a book then read others who are 'orthodox' (to see if they came up with similar ideas - so you know your not a kook) and then read your opponents literature so as to see a completely different perspective and possibly consider things you may have never thought of. Many people just hear somthing - it sounds good to them - and then they file it away and post it on here without any reexamination when challenged.

I do not just want to win the argument but I think on a certain level pre-trib is a terrible doctrine if posttrib is true (and I believe it is). Because many young Christians today are exposed right off the bat to this highly popularized teaching and it is tied to ones salvation - if you go through the trib your not saved. For a young believer who has been taught to escape persucution and trials and 'Bad Things' he is going to be troubled even more when he finds himself and his pre-trib beliefs were 'lies' (a bit strong but true if it is not correct - i dont' think it is a salvific issue though). They will have enough to deal with during this time instead of question themselves or God perhaps. You want to ready to endure to the end. That is my hope at least to have people prepared.

As Keith Green said - 'Pray for pre-trib, prepare for post-trib.'
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Old 02-19-2009, 01:55 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,592,460 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
You are so right we all fall into it - we need to be prayful and open and honest. It is easy to want to be settled on an issue and not do an rigirous examination - we like to have all our ducks in order. I used to be pre-trib for 14 yrs then I studied for myself - I did not read any books on the issue. I was always taught to first read the Word not a commentary or a book then read others who are 'orthodox' (to see if they came up with similar ideas - so you know your not a kook) and then read your opponents literature so as to see a completely different perspective and possibly consider things you may have never thought of. Many people just hear somthing - it sounds good to them - and then they file it away and post it on here without any reexamination when challenged.

I do not just want to win the argument but I think on a certain level pre-trib is a terrible doctrine if posttrib is true (and I believe it is). Because many young Christians today are exposed right off the bat to this highly popularized teaching and it is tied to ones salvation - if you go through the trib your not saved. For a young believer who has been taught to escape persucution and trials and 'Bad Things' he is going to be troubled even more when he finds himself and his pre-trib beliefs were 'lies' (a bit strong but true if it is not correct - i dont' think it is a salvific issue though). They will have enough to deal with during this time instead of question themselves or God perhaps. You want to ready to endure to the end. That is my hope at least to have people prepared.

As Keith Green said - 'Pray for pre-trib, prepare for post-trib.'

Just for the record. I didn't realize you were teaching a post-trib rapture. I'm afraid I can't agree with that either. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by the word 'rapture.'

True the elect will be "seized" (harpozo) and meet Christ in the air, but they are coming to the earth not going to heaven. The elect will be "seized" by the angels and gathered from the 4 winds of heaven and earth and gathered back to Jesus:

Mt 24:31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall *gather (#1997)together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2Th 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our *gathering (#1997)together unto him,
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Old 02-19-2009, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Arizona
777 posts, read 1,253,211 times
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The question should be, "When is the resurrection?"

We who are alive and remain (to that time) will not precede them.
The dead in Christ rise first, THEN ... [those who are alive and remain] will be changed. (1Thes 4:15-17)

The purpose of the "rapture" is not to remove Christians from witnessing even unto death, but to collect those who do manage to survive to that point in time.

The dead in Christ rise into immortal "glorified" bodies.
Then those surviving Christians pass from life into everlasting life also receiving glorified bodies.
(without tasting death)
The purpose of which (glorified bodies) is to 'house' us during the millennium and into the time of the new earth.

So...
When shall the resurrection unto life happen?
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Old 02-19-2009, 02:16 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,592,460 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richio View Post
The question should be, "When is the resurrection?"

We who are alive and remain (to that time) will not precede them.
The dead in Christ rise first, THEN ... [those who are alive and remain] will be changed. (1Thes 4:15-17)

The purpose of the "rapture" is not to remove Christians from witnessing even unto death, but to collect those who do manage to survive to that point in time.

The dead in Christ rise into immortal "glorified" bodies.
Then those surviving Christians pass from life into everlasting life also receiving glorified bodies.
(without tasting death)
The purpose of which (glorified bodies) is to 'house' us during the millennium and into the time of the new earth.

So...
When shall the resurrection unto life happen?
Define what you mean by 'the resurrection unto life...
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