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Old 02-19-2009, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Define what you mean by 'the resurrection unto life...
Revelation 20:4 (the one before the 1000 years)
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Old 02-19-2009, 03:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Just for the record. I didn't realize you were teaching a post-trib rapture. I'm afraid I can't agree with that either. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by the word 'rapture.'

True the elect will be "seized" (harpozo) and meet Christ in the air, but they are coming to the earth not going to heaven. The elect will be "seized" by the angels and gathered from the 4 winds of heaven and earth and gathered back to Jesus:

Mt 24:31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall *gather (#1997)together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2Th 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our *gathering (#1997)together unto him,
So do you seperate the I Thess.4 passage from the I Cor.15 passage. It seem to me they are be talking about the same thing the resurrection in the context of both letters (by Paul) not just a general 'gathering together' of the elect.

Also the Matt.24 passage and the II Thess.2 passage can be tied together either as the rapture or the gathering togehter for the wedding feast.

But the I Thess.4 passage has a different word for 'meet' than gathering together. The gathering together is more in line with the wedding feast and the meeting is more in line with the dignitary image. They are two ways of looking at the same thing which is happening at the same time. We are raptured (resurrection of the living - I Cor.15) as the means of being gathered together to Him in order to participated in the Wedding Feast at the inaguration of the Earthly Kingdom. But we must also be resurrected physically as the culmination of Christ work on the cross. This is why in Rev 19 the Bride (completed and resurrected saints now are prepared for the rule and reign of God on Earth) she has made herself ready.

I take it you do not think that the rapture is an aspect of the resurrection - that is for those who happen to be alive when he comes back.

I figured out a couple of post ago that you were not post-trib though
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Old 02-19-2009, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Arizona
777 posts, read 1,254,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Define what you mean by 'the resurrection unto life...
Personally, I think THAT resurrection occurs at the 7th trumpet, the "last trumpet". (1Cor 15:52)

...But that's based on when I think the "rapture" happens.
(which I know is what you've been saying)
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Old 02-19-2009, 03:43 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,595,592 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
So do you seperate the I Thess.4 passage from the I Cor.15 passage. It seem to me they are be talking about the same thing the resurrection in the context of both letters (by Paul) not just a general 'gathering together' of the elect.

Also the Matt.24 passage and the II Thess.2 passage can be tied together either as the rapture or the gathering togehter for the wedding feast.

But the I Thess.4 passage has a different word for 'meet' than gathering together. The gathering together is more in line with the wedding feast and the meeting is more in line with the dignitary image. They are two ways of looking at the same thing which is happening at the same time. We are raptured (resurrection of the living - I Cor.15) as the means of being gathered together to Him in order to participated in the Wedding Feast at the inaguration of the Earthly Kingdom. But we must also be resurrected physically as the culmination of Christ work on the cross. This is why in Rev 19 the Bride (completed and resurrected saints now are prepared for the rule and reign of God on Earth) she has made herself ready.

I take it you do not think that the rapture is an aspect of the resurrection - that is for those who happen to be alive when he comes back.

I figured out a couple of post ago that you were not post-trib though

Okay, you kinda lost me on Here:

Quote:
as the means of being gathered together to Him in order to participated in the Wedding Feast at the inaguration of the Earthly Kingdom. But we must also be resurrected physically as the culmination of Christ work on the cross. This is why in Rev 19 the Bride (completed and resurrected saints now are prepared for the rule and reign of God on Earth) she has made herself ready.
But what I've been trying to say, and obviously not doing a very good job, ..is I don't think any of the passages we've both mentioned has anything to do with being 'whisked off to heaven' and being 'kept safe' for X number of years, and THEN coming back with Christ to the earth. I hope I'm making sense here?

So IF you are also saying what I said above...then we're on the same page.
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Old 02-19-2009, 03:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Richio View Post
Personally, I think THAT resurrection occurs at the 7th trumpet, the "last trumpet". (1Cor 15:52)

...But that's based on when I think the "rapture" happens.
(which I know is what you've been saying)
The preositon 'at' is 'en' in Greek and so can be 'in' the 7th trumpet (that is anywhere in the 7th trumpet - which are the bowls that happen at the near end of the trib.) I personally think it is just before the judgement of the armies at Armageddon when Christ is returning.
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Old 02-19-2009, 03:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richio View Post
Personally, I think THAT resurrection occurs at the 7th trumpet, the "last trumpet". (1Cor 15:52)

...But that's based on when I think the "rapture" happens.
(which I know is what you've been saying)

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Old 02-19-2009, 03:54 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,595,592 times
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Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
The preositon 'at' is 'en' in Greek and so can be 'in' the 7th trumpet (that is anywhere in the 7th trumpet - which are the bowls that happen at the near end of the trib.) I personally think it is just before the judgement of the armies at Armageddon when Christ is returning.
I believe it all happens at the exact same moment. That's why it says, "Our God is a consuming fire."

His fire will consume His enemies and refine His elect.


Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
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Old 02-19-2009, 03:54 PM
 
5,508 posts, read 4,412,326 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Okay, you kinda lost me on Here:



But what I've been trying to say, and obviously not doing a very good job, ..is I don't think any of the passages we've both mentioned has anything to do with being 'whisked off to heaven' and being 'kept safe' for X number of years, and THEN coming back with Christ to the earth. I hope I'm making sense here?

So IF you are also saying what I said above...then we're on the same page.
I agree there is no 7 yr waiting period when the rapture happens but the rapture is an aspect of the resurrection not just a gathering together of those on earth who are the elect. If Paul is thinking of the rapture when he uses this term 'gathering together' in II Thess. then it is the result of the rapture happening. If he is only think of saints being gathered together for the feast then he is just talking about our fellowship with Christ at his coming. But no matter which way you take it the rapture in I Thess. is not just a gathering together it is in context an aspect of the resurrectionand accords with I Cor.15. Also the word meet in I Thess.4 has a different greek word and is used of the dignitary language not the wedding feast language.
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Old 02-19-2009, 03:59 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,595,592 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
I agree there is no 7 yr waiting period when the rapture happens but the rapture is an aspect of the resurrection not just a gathering together of those on earth who are the elect. If Paul is thinking of the rapture when he uses this term 'gathering together' in II Thess. then it is the result of the rapture happening. If he is only think of saints being gathered together for the feast then he is just talking about our fellowship with Christ at his coming. But no matter which way you take it the rapture in I Thess. is not just a gathering together it is in context an aspect of the resurrectionand accords with I Cor.15. Also the word meet in I Thess.4 has a different greek word and is used of the dignitary language not the wedding feast language.
Okay so maybe the "problem' is the word 'rapture.'

Here's what I believe.. Paul is saying (in several places) the 7th trump will sound and the elect will be gathered, changed, and meet Christ and return to the earth while at the same exact time Jesus will refine His elect (with fire...not literal of course) and consume His enemies. Our God is a consuming fire...

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
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Old 02-19-2009, 04:14 PM
 
5,508 posts, read 4,412,326 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Okay so maybe the "problem' is the word 'rapture.'

Here's what I believe.. Paul is saying (in several places) the 7th trump will sound and the elect will be gathered, changed, and meet Christ and return to the earth while at the same exact time Jesus will refine His elect (with fire...not literal of course) and consume His enemies. Our God is a consuming fire...

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Ok, I don't know why you diagree with post-trib? If you mean that you think the rapture is going to happen 'at' i.e. the beginingg of the 7th trumpet then I guess it would be just prior to the end of the trib. But my point on the preposition is that the rapture can happen anytime within the 7th trumpet even at the end just prior to the judgement at Armageddon when Christ is descending (note I Thess.4). Also the trumpet passages are I Thess.4 and I Cor.15 not II Thess.2 or Matt.24. Furhtermore, the trumpet of Rev. is different than the trumpet of Ressurection one is a sounding of warfare against the wicked not of blessing to call the righteous.

Now with that said If Paul was thinking of the rapture when he used the term gathering together in II Thess.2 and Matthew was to then they would be thinking of the resurrection not just the wedding feast which happens on earth prior to the inauguration of the Kingdom. If they were thinking of the wedding feast then so be it but this does not deny the I Thess.4 passage or the I Cor.15 passage that the rapture is an aspect of the resurrection.

I hope that helps Brother.


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