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Old 02-19-2009, 08:09 PM
 
4,247 posts, read 2,140,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn View Post
Wow. I asked this question because quite honestly, I have very little knowledge of the whole "pre-trib, post-trib, millinium" stuff. So I guess my question would be, does it matter? I mean, whatever is going to happen will happen, right? As long as we're living our life right and are ready for Him, isn't that all that matters? Is there a reason this needs to be studied?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn View Post
I see what you're saying.



To me, it's like trying to figure out what heaven will be like. Why worry about it? If you get there, are you really going to care? We study about how to get to heaven, but does it matter what it's like after we're there?

Maybe I feel this way, because I am sort of ignorant about the topic. I've read it, obviously, studied it a little, but have just always had the mindset that everyone just needs to be ready.
You are right everyone needs to be ready and I am not worried about it - I love God's Word and I think it is important to understand what it says to us even the Genealogies.
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Old 02-20-2009, 01:49 AM
 
Location: Canada
589 posts, read 928,068 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb in VA View Post
You're correct in saying that it doesn't matter whether or not the Lord returns pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib or whatever as long as we are living for Him and ready to go.

My concern is mainly for those people who are completely convinced that the Lord is going to return before the tribulation starts. How will they react if this doesn't happen and they are still around to see the signing of the 7 year peace treaty...or they are still here when the antichrist comes on the scene? I can imagine a whole lot of Christians basically freaking out over it and after realizing they were wrong about the rapture thing, perhaps starting to doubt their faith altogether.

My point is, I pray that those Christians who currently hold to a pre-trib mindset will at least be open to the idea that they could be wrong and we may very well be here to endure at least part of the tribulation.
The idea of a "pre-trib" rapture is the strong Delusion sent by God to the Christian churches who break his Law. They believe in the Lie that God will rapture them out of this World to save them from the Great Tribulation; but ironically it is precisely this belief that will seal their fate so they will not escape it.

Don't you find it absurd they believe God will rapture them out of this World "Pre-tribulation" and also resurrect the saints at the same time? Do dead people need to be saved too from the Great Tribulation?

Notice this Lie is being preached in churches that break his Law, particularly the 4th Commandments on keeping the Sabbath and the Feasts of the Lord. Those that worship on Sunday and keeping the pagan rites such as Christmas, Easter, etc. Because of willful sin their robes are dirty and God will subject them to a test of faith so they could redeem themselves! (Rev 7:13-14)

The Bible tells us that in the end time God will send his Prophet to lead the elect out to a safe place in a 2nd Great Exodus. I don't know how it will happen but I think it will have something to do with the Sabbath and the Feasts observance for one to be in the exodus. Therefore those who are waiting for the "Pre-trib" rapture, they will surely not heed the call of the Prophet!

There are several instances in the Bible where it is emphasized the elect are those who keep the 10 Commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. They are the ones God will protect in the Great Tribulation until the end when they will be gathered in a Rapture.

We are already at the door of Daniel's 70th Week... we must repent and turn away from sin to be found worthy to escape the coming global cataclysm and subsequently the Great Tribulation.
_____________________________
II Thes.2
9: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


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Old 02-20-2009, 08:24 AM
 
Location: Arizona
777 posts, read 920,912 times
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Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.
2Tim 2:17,18
Believing one has missed the rapture (and therefore the resurrection), will be upsetting to some.
When things begin to be apparent that we go through the tribulation, those who have been brought in by the "gospel of the rapture" will question the validity of everything else they've been taught.

What do you suppose would cause the apostasy foretold?
Hope deferred makes the heart sick;
Prov 13:12
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Old 02-20-2009, 08:34 AM
 
1,534 posts, read 934,844 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richio View Post
Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.
2Tim 2:17,18
Believing one has missed the rapture (and therefore the resurrection), will be upsetting to some.
When things begin to be apparent that we go through the tribulation, those who have been brought in by the "gospel of the rapture" will question the validity of everything else they've been taught.

What do you suppose would cause the apostasy foretold?
Hope deferred makes the heart sick;
Prov 13:12
Very good post. Esp. the part I high-lighted. Because they (rapture believers) are pinning their "hope" on the wrong thing. (I tried to rep you but couldn't).

BTW I believe the great apostasy has already started.
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Old 02-20-2009, 09:22 AM
 
1,534 posts, read 934,844 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Ok, I don't know why you diagree with post-trib? If you mean that you think the rapture is going to happen 'at' i.e. the beginingg of the 7th trumpet then I guess it would be just prior to the end of the trib. But my point on the preposition is that the rapture can happen anytime within the 7th trumpet even at the end just prior to the judgement at Armageddon when Christ is descending (note I Thess.4). Also the trumpet passages are I Thess.4 and I Cor.15 not II Thess.2 or Matt.24. Furhtermore, the trumpet of Rev. is different than the trumpet of Ressurection one is a sounding of warfare against the wicked not of blessing to call the righteous.

Now with that said If Paul was thinking of the rapture when he used the term gathering together in II Thess.2 and Matthew was to then they would be thinking of the resurrection not just the wedding feast which happens on earth prior to the inauguration of the Kingdom. If they were thinking of the wedding feast then so be it but this does not deny the I Thess.4 passage or the I Cor.15 passage that the rapture is an aspect of the resurrection.

I hope that helps Brother.

Quote:
Also the trumpet passages are I Thess.4 and I Cor.15 not II Thess.2 or Matt.24. Furhtermore, the trumpet of Rev. is different than the trumpet of Ressurection one is a sounding of warfare against the wicked not of blessing to call the righteous.
I am fully aware the word 'trumpet' is used in I Thess. 4 and I Cor. 15, but not in the other two passages.

So what you're actually saying then is that because the word 'trumpet' isn't used in II Thess 2:1 or Matt. 24:3 these passages AREN'T speaking of Christ's (#3952) parousia ? How silly is that.

With that kind of 'logic' then I Thess. 4. 16 wouldn't be Christ returning because the word 'descend' is used instead of 'parousia.'

Quote:
Furhtermore, the trumpet of Rev. is different than the trumpet of Ressurection one is a sounding of warfare against the wicked not of blessing to call the righteous.
I'm going to need Scripture to prove that statement.

Quote:
Now with that said If Paul was thinking of the rapture when he used the term gathering together in II Thess.2 and Matthew was to then they would be thinking of the resurrection not just the wedding feast which happens on earth prior to the inauguration of the Kingdom
I repeat:

So what you're actually saying then is that because the word 'trumpet' isn't used in II Thess 2:1 or Matt. 24:3 these passages AREN'T speaking of Christ's (#3952) parousia?

Quote:
the wedding feast which happens on earth prior to the inauguration of the Kingdom
It all happens in the twinkling of an eye. The heavens open, the trumpet sounds, Christ starts His desecent, the angels gather the elect, they are 'changed', they meet Christ in the air as He is descending, they escort Him back to the earth, His 'fire' consumes His enemies, His fire refines His elect, the wedding feast takes place, Christ sets up His kingom on the earth, and the 1,000 year reign begins.

You're trying to make it more complicated than
that.

I hope that helps Brother.

Last edited by mshipmate; 02-20-2009 at 09:36 AM.. Reason: correct spelling
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Old 02-20-2009, 04:30 PM
 
4,247 posts, read 2,140,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
I am fully aware the word 'trumpet' is used in I Thess. 4 and I Cor. 15, but not in the other two passages.

So what you're actually saying then is that because the word 'trumpet' isn't used in II Thess 2:1 or Matt. 24:3 these passages AREN'T speaking of Christ's (#3952) parousia ? How silly is that.

With that kind of 'logic' then I Thess. 4. 16 wouldn't be Christ returning because the word 'descend' is used instead of 'parousia.'



I'm going to need Scripture to prove that statement.



I repeat:

So what you're actually saying then is that because the word 'trumpet' isn't used in II Thess 2:1 or Matt. 24:3 these passages AREN'T speaking of Christ's (#3952) parousia?



It all happens in the twinkling of an eye. The heavens open, the trumpet sounds, Christ starts His desecent, the angels gather the elect, they are 'changed', they meet Christ in the air as He is descending, they escort Him back to the earth, His 'fire' consumes His enemies, His fire refines His elect, the wedding feast takes place, Christ sets up His kingom on the earth, and the 1,000 year reign begins.

You're trying to make it more complicated than
that.

I hope that helps Brother.
Ok I totally agree with your scenerio. I don't know where the problem is or how we got off track. I did notice that I misspoke in my post Matt. 24 does have the trumpet (v.31) but the II Thess.2 passage does not.

Regarding it not being the parousia - I did not intend to suggest that because there was no trumpet in the passage. I believe they all are talking about the parousia. My point was simply that it may have been possible in Pauls mind that he was thinking of the weeding feast not the rapture in II Thess.2 and hence not in exact line with Matt.24 or I Thess.4 or I Cor.15. - although I do prefer that he was thinking of the rapture. This all happens in a short period of time so we are talking about different aspects of one event.

As far as the highlighted regions I take them as two aspects of the same event. That is how (means) the saints are gathered together is by (means) the rapture (a resurrection for living saints at the return of the Lord) Maybe I am being to nuanced here but that is how I see it.

The weeding feast as I see it does not take place in the twinkling of an eye but is part of the celebration and consummation of the new age - the consummation of the marriage happens in the twinkling of any eye but the feast extends out from it and into the Kingdom. The former is a broader categaory and the latter is a subset of it. In fact the consummation of the new age begins with the 7 yr tribulation culminating in the return of the Lord and the begining of the new age of God's rule on Earth. So all I was trying to do show that Paul may have in mind the marriage supper on earth not in the air (the rapture).

Now with your scenerio how is this against a pos-trib view

Regarding the trumpets of Rev. and the ones above I think that in Rev. the 7th seal is 7 trumpets - none of which are used to call the elect but to sound forth the judgements of the wicked. The 7th trumpet are 7 bowls of the wrath of God not the call of the elect. I don't think the last trumpet of I Cor.15 is the 7th trumpet of Rev. I think it is the trumpet in Matt.24 and I Thess.4 which is immeddiately after the tribulation of those days. Christ reurns right after the 7th bowl and proceeds to judge the armies at Armageddon. As He decends the trumpet to gather the elect is sounded. This is the last trumpet in I Cor.15. not in the series of judgments.

OK I hope that clears some of the confusion, but why not post-trib?
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Old 02-20-2009, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Canada
589 posts, read 928,068 times
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The Gathering of the Saints (1st Resurrection + Rapture of elect) is described in the Bible as a wedding. The Jewish custom is the groom goes away to prepare the bridal room in his father's house for a time, which could be weeks, and when it is ready he comes back to take his bride and bridemaids for the wedding feast. So Jesus Christ is the Groom and he comes back to meet his bride, the True Church/Saints, in the sky! That's also why the True Church is symbolized by the "Woman" in Rev 12... because she is the future Bride of the King of kings.
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Old 02-20-2009, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Little Elm, TX
6,946 posts, read 7,345,966 times
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In the unfolding of his revelation on this mystery of our change, Paul begins "IN A MOMENT . . . " The Greek "en atomo," literally IN THE ATOMS, it is a change that is wrought in the very atomical structure of our being-- the very atoms will be altered, (made other). That which is of the earth, earthy, will be completely changed in its atoms, and take on a totally new expression, and that is why "we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself." [Philippians 3:20-21].

Now we find Paul uses another Greek word, "metamorphoo" for the CHANGE, from which we get our English word metamorphosis, which is defined as "change of form, structure, or substance." It is not a change brought about from the outside, but one produced by the nature within. The example has often been used of the worm and the butterfly. Inherent in the worm is the nature and expression of the butterfly, it simply requires that a change take place. When we were by nature "the children of wrath," [Ephesians 2:3] there was no way we could manifest the image of the heavenly. It is the receiving of CHRIST to dwell within us, to become our new nature. HIS is the life which produces the change.

http://home.att.net/~spiritword/Prin...ies/change.htm

If the scriptures are spiritual in nature, and cannot be understood by the natural man, how could everyone and their mother know the explanation?
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Old 02-20-2009, 09:55 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 2,183,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
I say you are closed minded because you don't read what I write. How do I know this because you just go on and on with your ideas.

The Thess. would be in this category:
Re 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree, but for the record I am neither decieved, pre-trib, pre-mil or dipensational, and I also care ONLY for the truth. And I am afraid, Preterist in you 'hurry' to disregard the above you have "thrown out the proverbial baby with the bath water."
mshipmate: I read EVERY word you write. It is unfair of you to assume that I do not. And I dealt with what you wrote in my post.

You are absolutely right--2 Thessalonians is tied to Revelation 6:10. (but remember: Revelation contains those things which were in John's day to shortly take place because the time was then near!). Those very people crying out for vengeance in Revelation 6:10 consisted of those who were promised vengeance at His appearing in 2 Thessalonians. What were they told? "It was said unto them that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." The key is that all of them were killed in the same fashion and for the same reason. They were those persecuted by those mentioned in Matthew 10 and 23--those murderous, apostate, idolatrous, Jews of their own generation. No other people of any other generation are in mind here.

Actually, mshipmate, you do not deal with my posts. I asked but you did not answer--what is the context of 2 Thessalonians 1? Were not those very flesh-and-blood, first-century, pre-A. D. Thessalonians promised that they personally would receive relief when the Lord Jesus was revealed from heaven? Did not Paul tell them that their persecutors and those causing them tribulation would receive God's vengeance upon themselves personally when the Lord Jesus was revealed from heaven? Why do you not deal with the passage and the words written there?

I have not thrown out the proverbial baby, mshipmate. And I did not hurriedly discard pre-mil, pre-trib. dispensationalism. It was a long journey from error to truth when I stopped allowing so-called authorities and scholars to tell me what the Scriptures say and became a good Berean! Will you do the same--at least with 2 Thessalonians 1? Regardless of what you have been taught, what does Paul clearly say?

In Christ, Preterist
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Old 02-20-2009, 10:01 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 2,183,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Don't patranize me you know exactly what I am talking about - if you have somthing useful to post do it.
Greetings, Shiloh: How did I patronize you? It was a serious, honest question. Is it too much for us to simply give scriptural support for the beliefs we post?

How can I know whether I agree or disagree with you if you do not supply scripture references that uphold your statements?

Preterist
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