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mshipmate: I read EVERY word you write. It is unfair of you to assume that I do not. And I dealt with what you wrote in my post.
You are absolutely right--2 Thessalonians is tied to Revelation 6:10. (but remember: Revelation contains those things which were in John's day to shortly take place because the time was then near!). Those very people crying out for vengeance in Revelation 6:10 consisted of those who were promised vengeance at His appearing in 2 Thessalonians. What were they told? "It was said unto them that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." The key is that all of them were killed in the same fashion and for the same reason. They were those persecuted by those mentioned in Matthew 10 and 23--those murderous, apostate, idolatrous, Jews of their own generation. No other people of any other generation are in mind here.
Actually, mshipmate, you do not deal with my posts. I asked but you did not answer--what is the context of 2 Thessalonians 1? Were not those very flesh-and-blood, first-century, pre-A. D. Thessalonians promised that they personally would receive relief when the Lord Jesus was revealed from heaven? Did not Paul tell them that their persecutors and those causing them tribulation would receive God's vengeance upon themselves personally when the Lord Jesus was revealed from heaven? Why do you not deal with the passage and the words written there?
I have not thrown out the proverbial baby, mshipmate. And I did not hurriedly discard pre-mil, pre-trib. dispensationalism. It was a long journey from error to truth when I stopped allowing so-called authorities and scholars to tell me what the Scriptures say and became a good Berean! Will you do the same--at least with 2 Thessalonians 1? Regardless of what you have been taught, what does Paul clearly say?
In Christ, Preterist
Actually, Preterist, I did answer you, but as I stated...you don't listen! You are so positive you are right that you can't see the forest for the trees!
But I will show you one more time...The answer is right here...
2Thess 1:5 ¶ Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
God's righteous judgement has not happened yet. It is in the future. It's called the white throne judgement.
They are worthy of the kingdom and will be part of it after God judges the 'earth. '
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
God WILL recompense those that trouble them when He judges everyone at the WTJ.
7 And to you who are troubled (the Thess.) rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
*rest with us...wait patienly....
What happens when Jesus is revealed? (revealed means to take the cover off) The Thess. will recieve their reward(s) when Christ returns.
8 In *flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
* Our God is a consuming fire. A fire that will consume His enemies and refine His elect. That refining, btw is part of their reward(s).
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Now if you can't see that then what can I say. It's written plainly enough for a child to see and understand.
Last edited by mshipmate; 02-20-2009 at 09:40 PM..
I said I would post some more on Rev.3:10 So here goes.
[CENTER][CENTER][SIZE=3]‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from[/SIZE][1][SIZE=3] the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.[/SIZE][/CENTER][/CENTER]
Each one of the benefits and blessings in Rev.2-3 are concerning the church and have to do with Christ’s return to earth to set up His kingdom. They are given to those who overcome.
1) 2:7 – they will partake of the tree of life.
2) 2:10-11 – they will receive the crown of life and will not be hurt by the 2nd death.
3) 2:17 – they will eat of the hidden manna and receive a new name.
4) 2:26-28 – they will rule and reign with Christ and receive the morning star.
5) 3:5 – they will be clothed in the righteousness of Christ
6) 3:12 – they will be a pillar in the temple of God and have the name of His city. And
7) 3:21 – they will sit on the throne with Christ.
All of these blessings and benefits are for those who ‘overcome.’ What are they to overcome? Since they are already Christians it certainly is not overcoming in the sense of being justified. It must be in reference to their sanctification – particularly temptations (sins and any attempts to be led astray into sin), trials, and persecution (at the hands of God’s enemies). The ones who do so will receive their rewards at Christ’s 2nd coming.
Note all the immediate verses to these scriptures. They are exhorted and encouraged to:
1) 2:6 – hate sin.
2) 2:10 – endure suffering and death.
3) 2:16 – stop tolerating sin (repent or Christ will come and fight against them with His mouth, that is 2nd coming language regarding the sword in Rev.19:15, in other words do not tolerate the sin of those who are in your midst but reprove them or else Christ will come and have to judge them for their sin).
4) 2:25 – to hold fasttill he comes, once again 2nd coming language,
5) 3:4 – to keep their garments (therefore they will be able to walk with him in his kingdom.
6) 3:11 – to hold fast what you have, for He is coming quickly, 2nd coming language.
7) 3:20 – to repent (so that you will dine with Him in His kingdom (possibly the marriage supper).
Note there is not one iota of a hint to suggest that they will escape the tribulation, everything is about being prepared for it, enduring it, and overcoming it in order to receive the blessings and the rewards that are at Christ’s 2nd coming and kingdom which happens at the end of the tribulation.
In light of this how should we view chapter 3:10? Notice verse 3 and the thief motif.[2] If you will not watch I will come upon you as a thief and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. The logical deduction is that if you will watch then you will know and His return will not be as a thief to you, but a blessing, accompanied with rewards. This is what we are kept (guarded) from in verse 10 along with the trials and testing’s of the last 3 1/2 years[3]. If you are not prepared, watching, and waiting for His return you will not know what hour He comes.[4] Verse 11 says that He is coming quickly so hold fast what you have in order that no one takes your crown. When do we get our crowns? It is at the judgment seat of Christ when we receive our rewards and this takes place at the end of the tribulation not the beginning.
Everything in these chapters suggest that they are about to experience the tribulation and therefore should be prepared, whether by repenting or counting the cost and are to be watching and waiting, not for the rapture, but for the Lord’s second coming.[5] Therefore, watch, be prepared, hold fast, and endure to the end.
[2] The point at which Christ comes as a thief is just after the tribulation (7th bowl) Rev.16:15.
[3] The ‘hour of trial’ talked about in verse 10 is specifically in reference to the last half of the tribulation not the whole period of tribulation. They will be protected from the satanically inspired deception that occurs during this time, it does not necessitate being removed from the earth – it only requires protection from the plagues of God and/or lies of the Adversary. See in this paper the discussion regarding Revelation 3:10, under ‘Answering Objections’ and ‘The wrath of God.’
[4] How could you know, those qualities are for the children of light not the children of darkness (I Thess.5:1-10). It is the children of darkness that will experience the 2nd coming as a thief not the children of light. The Day of the Lord is the specific Day when Christ comes back to judge the nations not the tribulation period. God has not appointed us to that Day of wrath but salvation (deliverance) and an entrance into His kingdom. See the appendix ‘The Day of the LORD.’
[5] See p.119, ‘The New International Commentary on the New Testament; The Book of Revelation’, Robert H. Mounce. He says in discussing the pre-tribulational view, ‘The thrust of the verse is against this interpretation. It is precisely because the Church was faithful to Christ in time of trial that He will be faithful to them in their great trial…The hour of trial is that period of testing and trial that precedes the establishment of the eternal kingdom…It is the three and a half years of rule by the Antichrist.’ He also cites an article by Schuyler Brown in JBL, 85 (1966), pp. 308-14, titled ‘The Hour of Trial, Rev. 3:10.’ Brown summarizes his position by stating that ‘as a reward for faithful perseverance Christ promises the church of Philadelphia (and all faithful Christians) His special protection in the hour of universal tribulation which is to precede His return’ (p.314).
Regarding the Preposition and Rev.3:10
First: It does not say that God would keep them from the world or the Tribulation; it says that God would keep them from ‘the hour of temptation.’ This is in line with Jesus’ prayer in Jn.17:15. The focus is not so much the hour but the temptation. In other words God is keeping them from what the hour represents not an ‘hour’ per-se; it’s a promise to keep them from the temptation of a particular time not to keep them from a moment of time called an ‘hour’ just so they don’t have to experience anymore time.[1] It is the power of God’s Spirit and promise that they overcome the temptation not a physical removal from a temporal-space. Certainly God does not have to remove them to protect, guard, or watch over them in regard to this temptation. So we could say God would ‘…guard you from the hour; that is the trial which is coming upon…’ or simply ‘…the hour; the trial…’
Second: The word keep does not necessitate a removal even if the preposition [SIZE=3]ἐκ[/SIZE]is used in conjunction with it. The word can and does have the idea of to ‘guard, to keep watch over, and even to continue in a given state.’ Even though saints may have to endure the tribulation (not God’s wrath but mans) they will be protected concerning the temptation. The temptation that will come upon the whole world is probably the deception that will prevail through the lying signs and wonders used to deceive people (II Thess.2:1-12) – but certainly not the elect (Matt.24:24).
Third: The preposition [SIZE=3]ἐκ[/SIZE]is very flexible as can be seen by an examination of any Greek grammar. It can even have the idea of ‘because of’ (Jn.6:66) ‘Because of this [what Jesus said] many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.’ The word for ‘time’ is not in the text – ‘from this time…’ Now I am not saying that this is what the translation should be in Revelation but I am showing the flexibility of this preposition. In general it has the force of 1) Source: out of, from 2) Separation: away from, from 3) Temporal: from, from [this point]… on 4) Cause: because of 5) Partitive (substituting for a Partitive gen.): of 6) Means: by, from.[2] Now note the verb that it is used with, it says nothing about removal but protection as is seen in its parallel about the Church of Philadelphia guarding and protecting the word of Christ. This preposition can also have the idea of ‘since’ as in a marker of time from a point in the past. There is no necessity for spatial or time removal. Jesus could be saying that He ‘…also will guard you, since or because of the hour of trial is/that is coming upon the whole world.’
Fourth: Does this mean that those to whom Jesus spoke to in the other churches who were not patiently enduring would experience the temptation/trial? Nowhere in the letters to the seven churches does it explicitly say that God would keep them from the tribulation. In fact there are hints that they will go through it and those that overcome will be rewarded with certain blessings. Note 2:9-10 - now this is not the ‘The Tribulation’ per-se but notice what God allows them to suffer even unto death (cf.v.13) – not by His hands but by the Devil’s; 25-27, notice that it says to hold fast till I come…till the end… and then they will be given power over the nations and rule and reign with Him; 3:3 – once again here is the thief motif, which we know speaks of the great Day of the Lord when He judges the nations and the armies gathered at Armageddon. Notice that those who keep His word will not be taken by surprise when the Lord comes upon them as a thief - that is plundered and judged.
[1] See ‘Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics’ Daniel B. Wallace, p.94-96. The grammatical construction fits what is called the Genitive in Simple Opposition, where ‘…both nouns are in the same case (Gen.) and the appositive
(Trial) does not name a specific example that falls within the category named by the noun to which it is related (hour). Rather, it simply gives a different designation that either clarifies who [or what] is the one [or thing] named or shows a different relation to the rest of the clause than what the first noun by itself could display. Both words thus have the same referent, though they describe it in different terms.’
[2] Ibid. pp.371-372; Also note, pp.123; 359-360; Page 123, he talks about ἐκ + gen. expressing the beginning of time (cf., e.g., Mark 9:21 - ‘from childhood’). The point is, once again the meaning is flexible. On pages 359-360, he says regarding spatial functions of prepositions – ‘What is the value of this discussion for exegesis? It is simply that too often prepositions are analyzed simplistically, etymologically, and without consideration for the verb to which they are connected. Prepositions are often treated in isolation, as though their ontological meaning were still completely intact. Note for example, the following illustration.’ He then discusses John 1:18 and then list other texts impacted by the discussion including Rev.3:10.
Greetings, Shiloh1: I have a copy of Daniel B. Wallace's book, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics. Wallace was my Greek professor at Grace Theological Seminary (1982-1989). Have you studied Greek? (I'm not being rude, I'm just asking!).
Anyway, I enjoyed your quote of Revelation 3:10. Did you happen to notice when you posted it that it clearly says: "the hour that is about to come?" The Greek word there is mello meaning "about to." This word, unfortunately, is often ignored and mistranslated with the simple future!
Your entire post does not abolish the truths of preterism but actually upholds them!
It cannot and must not be overlooked that the time frame of this entire book is clearly stated in the book itself, yet many simply ignore it or attempt to redefine it. Those churches to whom the letters are addressed were actual, real churches of the first century made up of living, breathing saints of that same generation. It was THEY who were to endure tribulation and overcome! Everything John was shown involved those things which were in his day to shortly take place because the time was then near (Rev. 1:1, 3). In the last chapter, the angel again tells John that the things he is shown are to shortly take place. He is told to not seal up the words of the prophecy because the time for fulfillment was near! Jesus Himself said: "Behold, I am coming soon!"
The bowls of wrath of Revelation 16 also fall within the confines of the time frame clearly spelled out in the first and last chapters of the book.
We cannot understand the Revelation unless we place it in its proper historical setting--that first-century, pre-A. D. 70 world!
Preterist
Last edited by Preterist; 02-20-2009 at 11:03 PM..
OK Shiloh, nice post. It seems the book of Revelation sort of puts a kink in Preterists theory and as you pointed out is not specific about the rapture occuring before during or after the tribulation. I still havent had time to recover my notes from home so I will just have to stay in my theory mode and keep watching.
Actually, RobinD69, the book of Revelation supports and promotes Preterism. John was clearly shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place because the time was THEN near! (Rev.1:1, 3). The angel again told John that the things he was shown were to shortly take place in chapter 22. The angel also told John to NOT seal up the prophecy of the book because the time was then NEAR!
This entire book deals with the ending of the age of Judaism (the old heavens and earth), the vengeance of God upon those wicked, murderous, adulterous, idolatrous Jews of that generation (See Matthew 23!), the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, and the coming of the new covenant age (the new heavens and new earth)! If you want to discover the real, unfathomable horrors of that day and the spiritual signs in the heavens read Josephus' eyewitness account!
Jesus said "Behold, I am coming soon!" And He did!
I believe that the rapture will come BEFORE the tribulation starts. For starters - how would the rapture at the END of the trib. be like Jesus like a thief in the night? It would hardly be unexpected! We would all be waiting for it - if there were any christians left that is. Also, God has a histroy of removing his people BEFORE the big judgemnts start - for instance - Noah and the Flood. Soddom and Gom. God will REMOVE his people before the trib. This will also go with the scripture that says "that which must be removed before he is revelaed" I believe that speaks about the Church and the Holy Spirit within the true Christians which must be removed before the antichrist is revealed.
We are to be like the wise virgins in the new testament who were watching and waiting - if the rapture were post trib - the virigns would be exterminated OR there would be no need to warn them to be watching and waiting......it would be expected that the rapture would take place.
The Rapture will take place very soon I think, but it will be UNEXPECTED!!! There will be shock, disbelief - and it will set the scene for some world leader 'antichrist' to come along - soothing a troubled, distressed world that has just witnessed the most remarkable event ever!!!! The disappearance of millions of people. The antichrist will come up with some explanation - and people will willingly get 'chipped' with the number of the beast, afraid that they too will be removed to some place............so, as you can tell, I am 100% for the Pre-Trib rapture theory.
jennaflorrie: Could you please provide the Scriptures you believe support your beliefs? Thank you.
I have to respectfully disagree jennaflorrie...this is one of the most misquoted verses when it comes to speaking of the rapture. I used to believe in a pre-trib rapture but I have recently changed my mind and now am more inclined to believe in a mid or post-trib rapture. If you look at the verses following the one that speaks of the Lord coming as a thief in the night, it is clear that this will only happen to those who are in darkness. Paul clearly states that those he is writing to are not in darkness (i.e. believers), and therefore the coming of the Lord should not take them by surprise.
1 Thess. 5:2-6..."for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled."
Also, take a look at Revelation 20:4-6
"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."
Notice that these believers go through the tribulation yet this is the FIRST resurrection. How many resurrections are there? I'm only aware of one.
I believe that Christians will go through at least part of the tribulation and am afraid that those who are convinced otherwise (that we will be raptured before any of the bad stuff happens) just might be caught off guard. I look at it this way, I'd rather be wrong about my position, than have those who are convinced we will be raptured before the tribulation, be wrong about their position.
Greetings Deb in Va: To whom is Paul writing in 1 Thessalonians 5? Is he not writing to those very, flesh-and-blood Thessalonians concerning things that are to personally happen to THEM? Why did Paul not have to write to THEM, his brethren, concerning the times and seasons? They knew that the Lord would come as a thief in the night. Why did that matter? Because Paul reminds THEM that THEY are not in darkness and because THEY (i.e. those very first-century Thessalonians) are not in darkness, THEY should not worry about being overtaken as a thief.
In Paul's closing prayer, he prays that those very Thessalonians would be found blameless at "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes. 5:23). Clearly, Paul, those Thessalonians and other saints of THAT day expected Him to come in THEIR lifetime. That is the context; that is the audience relevance. It must not be overlooked!
First regarding the theif motif - I encourage you to do a study of every time that phrase is used. One absolute proof againt the pretrib explanation of the thief being at the begining of the trib is Rev.16:15 - Jesus has yet to come as a theif all the way through the whole tribulation period upto the 7th bowl - explain that one? Why would Jesus or the NT describe the Rapture as thief - that is a negative term not a positive one. As others have said the only ones who experience the Lords coming as a thief are the one who are not ready, watching, waiting, or prepared - that is why the second coming is like a thief for the wicked not the righteouss. I am seriously astounded at the lack of posters on here who do not have a teachable spirit. The wicked get plundered and robbed of their humanistic hopes and judge for their rejection of the prophets and the saints proclamation of Jesus' return. The idea of the rapture is not one of unexpectedness - you confuse the thief motif with the rapture - the unexpectedness is for those who are not looking for His second coming that is why he comes as a thief to them not us (read I Thees.5).
Second, regarding Noah and the Flood, please read the passage carefully. Noah was not raptured and the flood is likened to the second coming not the Tribulation. That is Jesus said: The Flood = The Coming of the Son of Man. Now notice that in Genesis Noah went into the Ark 7 days prior to the Flood. The Ark is a type of Christ. Those who are in Christ 7 years prior to the Flood - the Second coming, will be prepared for His Judgment because they heeded the warning unlike those who did not and therefore did not expect Judgment and hence were taken in Judgment when the flood came - that is when the second comning came. As far as Lot is concerned he was not raptured but was moved away from the Judgment or spared from it - that is the second coming Judgment not the tribulation.
Third, as far as II Thess.2:1-12 that will take a little explaining but I assure you your take is contrived and is a classic example of eisigesis. I will post seperatly on that one.
Fourth, the virgins are a parable regarding the second coming not the rapture. Where do you get this stuff? They were prepared for the Bridegroom because they had they lamps filled with oil (the Spirit). Ask yourself this - when is the Wedding Feast in the Book of Revelation? - answer at the end of the tribualtion. Ask youself this - where is the Wedding Feast? - answer on Earth before they go into the Kingdom not in heaven.
I pray you see clearly these truths.
Shiloh1: And I encourage you to clearly see that the Revelation concerns those things that were to shortly take place in John's day and that at the time of John's writing the time was near! Please study Revelation 1:1, 3: 22:6, 10 and take it in its plain sense.
I also encourage you to consider the historical setting and audience relevance of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12! What does the very first verse say?
[From "Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians--1:1]
2 Thes. 2:1--"Now we beseech YOU, brethren [Thessalonians] by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by OUR [Paul, Silvanus, Timothy, Thessalonians] gathering together unto him." THEY of that day were to be gathered unto Him. That is what it says! Paul informs those very Thessalonians not to be shaken or believe that the time of the coming of the Lord had already come. By saying that, he was NOT implying that His coming would be thousands of year away! He is simply exhorting them to realize that certain things must happen first--in their lifetime. He has already told them these things (vs. 5). The man of sin had to first be revealed and when he was he would sit in the Temple of God (read Josephus to find the fulfillment of this!). THEY, those very Thessalonians and Paul and Silvanus and Timothy ALL knew who the restrainer was. It was someone or something of THEIR day! They knew him!
To whom was Paul writing? Why did he write what he wrote? What was going on in his day that prompted him to write? How would the Thessalonians have understood his words? Again, we must ascertain the context, the historical setting and the audience relevance in order to understand biblical passages!
I totally agree. The rapture will happen and then the tribulation will begin. The tribulation which is also referred to in the Bible as "Jacob's Trouble" (Jacob is also know as Israel) is not intended for Christians. And I do have scripture to back me up...
In Daniel 9:24, Israel is given a certain amount of years that they will be "judged" (490 years, seven of which remain, i.e. the seven years of tribulation) and these are the reasons given for this judgement or wrath of God:
"to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness"
I don't have the scriptures here with me but you can find it in the new testament that each and every one of these things is accomplished in us through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Therefore we do not need to be subject to the Tribulation. I hope everyone makes their own peace with this question though since the scripture states that HE is coming back for a church "without spot or wrinkle" and only for those who are "waiting and watching."
But those are just my thoughts. Hope I was clear.. I tend to ramble and get carried away!!
RWaggoner: When was the fulfillment of Daniel 9? All of those things were fulfilled in the coming of Christ--
HE finished the transgression on the cross! (vs. 24)
HE made an end of sins (the power of sins) on the cross! (vs. 24)
HE made reconciliation for iniquity! (vs. 24)
HE brought in everlasting righteousness! (vs. 24)
HE was cut off (on the cross)! (vs. 26)
(The temple and the city were destroyed in A. D. 70!) (vs. 26)
HE confirmed the covenant (the new covenant in His blood)! (vs. 27)
HE caused the sacrifices to seek (through His once-for-all perfect sacrifice on the cross) (vs. 27)
Daniel was told to seal up the vision and prophecy because the time was far off (Daniel 12) but JOHN was told to not seal it up because the time for fulfillment was near--in his day (Revelation 22:10).
The 70 weeks of Daniel are behind us and not before us! It is a horrible thing to attribute to some "anti-Christ" those marvelous, matchless works of our Lord and Savior!
The Great Tribulation is only for the Christians not for the unbelievers. The Bible said during the reign of the Antichrist the World will be eating, drinking, marrying and giving into marriage; while the Christians will be hunted down for refusing the Mark of the Beast.
God will protect the 2 groups of elect (here on earth):
1.) The 144000 who are sealed with the Name of God on their foreheads for protection as they go out to the World in pairs to serve as witnesses.
2.) The "Woman" (Rev 12) which is the symbol of the true Church/true believers. Theywho obey the 10 Commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. They will be given the "Great wings of an eagle" (airlines?) to flee to the wilderness of Edom, Moab, and Ammon (Jordan), where they will be nourished and kept safe from the Great Tribulation.
After the Great Tribulation the elect will be raptured (Greek: Harpazo) in the Gathering of Saints; they will rise up to the sky to meet Christ in the clouds (Matt 24:29-31).
Many times in the Bible God has warned us against breaking his Law. The Christians who don't obey the 10 Commandments (Sabbath-breakers, worshippers of God's graven images, etc.) will be subjected to the trial of fire... beheading... so they could redeem themselves and be found worthy to be in the 1st Resurrection (Gathering of Saints). Read Rev 7... they are the "great multitude" who have washed their robes clean in the Great Tribulation! ---------------------------------
REV 7
9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10: And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb....
13: And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
--------------------------------- Matt 24
29:Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31:And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Greetings, wilvan: What is the setting of Revelation 7? It is to be found in the clear time frame given to John concerning the Revelation. He was shown those things which were to shortly take place because the time was then near (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10).
At least 20 times in Matthew 24 Jesus says "you." He is speaking directly to His disciples right there with Him concerning things that were to personally affect them! Notice particularly verse 15--"When YOU see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet . . . ." If Jesus told His disciples right there with Him that THEY were to see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, then THEY did--THEY and no other generation!
The things spoken of in verses 29-31 are clothed in symbolic, apocalyptic, judgment language commonly used by OT Jewish prophets to describe God's coming in judgment upon nations. Jesus' disciples would have clearly understood what type of language Jesus was using in these verses. They would not have expected these upheavals in the heavens to take place literally since such predicted things never took place literally when God "came" in judgment during OT times. It is our western mindsets that cause so many to miss this!
Furthermore, following verses 29-33 is verse 34 which clearly gives the entire time frame for all that precedes. "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place" (that includes verses 29-31). Simply because we do not easily see a fulfillment is no justification for ignoring or redefining the clear timing of it!
You are so right we all fall into it - we need to be prayful and open and honest. It is easy to want to be settled on an issue and not do an rigirous examination - we like to have all our ducks in order. I used to be pre-trib for 14 yrs then I studied for myself - I did not read any books on the issue. I was always taught to first read the Word not a commentary or a book then read others who are 'orthodox' (to see if they came up with similar ideas - so you know your not a kook) and then read your opponents literature so as to see a completely different perspective and possibly consider things you may have never thought of. Many people just hear somthing - it sounds good to them - and then they file it away and post it on here without any reexamination when challenged.
I do not just want to win the argument but I think on a certain level pre-trib is a terrible doctrine if posttrib is true (and I believe it is). Because many young Christians today are exposed right off the bat to this highly popularized teaching and it is tied to ones salvation - if you go through the trib your not saved. For a young believer who has been taught to escape persucution and trials and 'Bad Things' he is going to be troubled even more when he finds himself and his pre-trib beliefs were 'lies' (a bit strong but true if it is not correct - i dont' think it is a salvific issue though). They will have enough to deal with during this time instead of question themselves or God perhaps. You want to ready to endure to the end. That is my hope at least to have people prepared.
As Keith Green said - 'Pray for pre-trib, prepare for post-trib.'
Just for the record. I didn't realize you were teaching a post-trib rapture. I'm afraid I can't agree with that either. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by the word 'rapture.'
True the elect will be "seized" (harpozo) and meet Christ in the air, but they are coming to the earth not going to heaven. The elect will be "seized" by the angels and gathered from the 4 winds of heaven and earth and gathered back to Jesus:
Mt 24:31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall *gather (#1997)together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
2Th 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our *gathering (#1997)together unto him,
mshipmate: What follows verse 31? "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place" (including verse 31!!).
Did you notice the OUR in 2 Thessalonians 2:1? Paul is talking about himself, those Thessalonians and all other saints of THAT day when he says "Now we beseech YOU, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by OUR gathering together unto him." It was THEY of that first-century who looked forward to His coming in THEIR lifetime to gather THEM unto Himself. That is what the passages clearly states.
Preterist
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