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Revelation 3:14: "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" (KJV)
Who is the Amen and the faithful and true witness?
2 Corinthians 1:19, 20: "For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among YOU through us, that is, through me and Sil‧va′nus and Timothy, did not become Yes and yet No, but Yes has become Yes in his case. For no matter how many the promises of God are, they have become Yes by means of him. Therefore also through him is the “Amen” [said] to God for glory through us." (NWT)
What does it say about this person in the last part of this Scripture?
the beginning of the creation of God
Where so many ppl go wrong is in applying the English definition to a Greek word. You have done the same thing.
The word in Rev. 3:14 is is arche from the middle voice of archo which means to be first in order or rank or power; chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.
So that verse is not saying Christ was God's first creation, but the chief ruler of creation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad
In the Revelation 3:14 text...the word for "Beginning" there means "source"
jesus Christ is the "source" for all of the creation....this is true.
5. Why did Satan call him ‘Son of God’ and not ‘God’? The term "Son of God" highlights his humanity, as such it is correct to address Jesus as the "Son of God"
But as to why Satan used the term?...dont know...thats a question that I bet lots of Bible Commentaries tussle with Im sure...LOL
Quote:
Why did Satan call him ‘Son of God’ and not ‘God’?
Actually satan did ask Christ if He was claiming to be God.
If we look through the gospels we will see satan, the demons and the Jews ALL knew what the term Son of God meant. How did they know this? The knew the Scriptures.
The devil wasn't asking Christ here if He was God's Son. He was saying, "If you are The Son of God," or in otherwords he was saying, "If You are The Son of God written about in the book of Daniel....."
It's a shame, the devil, demons knew/UNDERSTOOD Christ was claiming to have been the 'fourth man in the furnace,' but ppl today don't.
Thats why the Jews picked up stones to stone Him. Because, as they said, He, as a 'mere man' claimed to be The Son of God that exsisted way back then and saved the 3 Hebrew children from dying [they didn't even have the smell of smoke on them] in the furnace.
Da 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
Last edited by mshipmate; 12-27-2011 at 10:19 AM..
a spirit can be talked about as being male of female, or "other"
This is because a spirit is without a body, and as it has no body it has no sex organs.
Thus a spirit is never male nor female....
But we can talk about a spirit being male or female if we use the terms as symbols for some type of point we are making.
We can do this with any nonphysical idea.
"Hate" can be talked about as being male of female.
"Foolishness" can also be seen as male or female too.
all such things that have no real physical body of flesh and blood can be spoken of as if they were male or female in a symbolic manner.
This is different than the way the Bible talks about the "Christ"
The Bible speaks of the future "Christ" always in terms that lead us to look forward to a "male"
If the Bible spoke of the coming Christ as if this person were female then Jesus would not be the Christ at all, because Jesus was male.
So in the Bible whenever we read about some "thing" and we are told that it is talking about the "Christ" then one of the ways we can check on this is to see if the words are "male"
If they are male then we can guess that the verse might well be talking about the "Christ"
However if the verse has used words that are "female" then we can know for 100% sure that the verse is NOT talking about the "Christ".
a spirit can be talked about as being male of female, or "other"
This is because a spirit is without a body, and as it has no body it has no sex organs.
Thus a spirit is never male nor female....
But we can talk about a spirit being male or female if we use the terms as symbols for some type of point we are making.
We can do this with any nonphysical idea.
"Hate" can be talked about as being male of female.
"Foolishness" can also be seen as male or female too.
all such things that have no real physical body of flesh and blood can be spoken of as if they were male or female in a symbolic manner.
This is different than the way the Bible talks about the "Christ"
The Bible speaks of the future "Christ" always in terms that lead us to look forward to a "male"
If the Bible spoke of the coming Christ as if this person were female then Jesus would not be the Christ at all, because Jesus was male.
So in the Bible whenever we read about some "thing" and we are told that it is talking about the "Christ" then one of the ways we can check on this is to see if the words are "male"
If they are male then we can guess that the verse might well be talking about the "Christ"
However if the verse has used words that are "female" then we can know for 100% sure that the verse is NOT talking about the "Christ".
Three explicit scriptures identifying the Son is created and the best the trinitarians can offer is "they do not mean what they say"?
(Proverbs 8:22-36) Wisdom is female - genitive case is the ONLY basis for denial of the OBVIOUS and specific references to the characteristics of the role the Son will fulfill. Figurative speech MUST be genitive case accurate when referring to the Son? LOL! Is that a Koine Greek rule of translation?
(Colossians 1:15) Firstborn does not mean firstborn - A truncated definition of firstborn to limit it as ONLY a synonym for preeminent. You deny the accuracy of Paul's and the holy spirit's writing in selecting the more nuanced firstborn when preeminence was the only meaning to convey? It requires blindness to accept that firstborn is a synonym for preeminence. Even the examples to support that assertion are demonstrative of the error.
(Rev 3:14) Beginning does not mean beginning - Again an attempt to redefine the words selected by John and the holy spirit. However, in your effort to "clarify" the definition of beginning, you only bolster the evidence the that the Son was created FIRST and then all other things were created through him. (Col1:16; 1 Cor 8:6)
Three VERY explicit and clear verses that teach Jesus was created. The rebuttals to the message of the Bible in favor of a non-Biblical trinitarian belief are only to say the Bible does not say what it explicitly says.
It is always the way of the trinitarian apologist to ignore the explicit message of the words in the Bible in favor of an interpretation based on their non-Biblical bias.
These passages were taken from the Jehovah Witnesses’ New World Translation Bible.
“This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6)
“I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.” (Revelation 1:8)
Who is speaking in these 2 passages? Jehovah God
5 And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also, he says: “Write, because these words are faithful and true.” 6 And he said to me: “They have come to pass! I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free. 7 Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son. (Revelation 21:5-7)
I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. (Revelation 22:13)
Who is speaking in these 2 passages? Jehovah God
The Alpha and Omega, First and the Last, Beginning and the End is Jehovah God!
Revelation 1:17-18 says,
17 And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet.
And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Ha´des.
Well, Arianism in the ancient world was actually connected with Platonism as much as with a plain reading of the Bible... Neo-Platonist presuppositions about the nature of God informed much of the suppossed sophisticated theology of Eusebius of Nicomedia and Arius. Jehovah's Wittnesses are not as erudite or learned as these Anians but they are following the same philosophical groundwork, that God is somehow absolutely simple, without distinction between essence and person.
Where does the Bible teach the difference between them?
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