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Old 01-13-2009, 07:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billb7581 View Post
Where does Scripture demonstrate that all you have to do is study Scripture? For the first 300 years of the New Covenant, Scripture as we know it, didn't exist. What should those folks have done?
The church had the scriptures, they should have studied it properly and taught it accurately to the people instead of making up unbiblical tradition after tradition.

 
Old 01-13-2009, 07:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
* Why did the Early Christians only pray to Jesus? (but Catholics pray to Mary and other saints?)


Because what does Paul say in the first four verses before 1st Timothy, 2:1, "First of all then, I urge the supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men." By Jesus alone? Of course not. By us, "for kings and all who are in high positions in order that we might lead a quiet and peaceful life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good and is acceptable by God our Savior who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and there is one mediator between God and man."
 
Old 01-13-2009, 07:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
The church had the scriptures, they should have studied it properly and taught it accurately to the people instead of making up unbiblical tradition after tradition.

Sola Scriptura is unhistorical. The New Testament Church comes before the New Testament books. The New Testament Church leaders are the writers who penned the New Testament books. The successors to the apostles at the Council of Hippo and the Council of Carthage are the ones who compiled the New Testament.

If you hold up the New Testament and say "These 27 books are the only authority."

Where did you get those 27 books, why those and not others?

Why do you take the decision of Catholic bishops, meeting in Catholic Councils back in the 4th century? Why do you take that at face value?

Why do you assume that the Holy Spirit led them to declare what books are inspired, when those same Bishops teach the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the veneration of Saints, devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, Purgatory, seven sacraments and so on?

Why do you think the Spirit guided them with the 27 books, but didn't guide them everywhere else?



That's illogical, it's unhistorical, it's contrary to Scripture.
 
Old 01-14-2009, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Conservative in Liberal California
1,678 posts, read 2,538,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billb7581 View Post
Because what does Paul say in the first four verses before 1st Timothy, 2:1, "First of all then, I urge the supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men." By Jesus alone? Of course not. By us, "for kings and all who are in high positions in order that we might lead a quiet and peaceful life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good and is acceptable by God our Savior who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and there is one mediator between God and man."
First of all, God bless you bill...I mean no disrespect in any way...but, am I missing something here? Where does this support asking saints to interceed for us? I take it to mean that we are to pray for all people. We are to make our requests to God, asking for mercy for those in authority.
 
Old 01-14-2009, 05:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billb7581 View Post
Uh, no.. that is clearly about someone claiming that Christ wasn't the Messiah and that individual was, note the word "Temple" obviously refering to the Temple Mount.




Let's look closer here.

If there was an important enough purpose, Paul recommended permanently giving up marriage and meat.

He himself was celibate (1 Corinthians 7:8), he recommended the same for ministers (2 Timothy 2:3-4), and he recommended it for the unmarried so they can devote themselves more fully to the Lord (1 Corinthians 7:32-34) unless doing so would subject them to great temptations (1 Cointhians 7:9).

He also recommended giving up meat permanently if it would prevent others from sinning (1 Corinthians 8:13).

Paul certainly had nothing against celibacy or giving up meat -- even on a permanent basis -- so long as one wasn't saying that these things are intrinsically evil, which is what he was condemning the "doctrines of demons" passage.

Since the Catholic Church only requires abstinence from meat on a temporary basis, it clearly does not regard meat is immoral. Instead, it regards it as the giving up of a good thing (which in less economically developed regions -- including the whole world until very recently -- was expensive and thus eaten at festive occasions, making it a sign of rejoicing) to attain a spiritual goal.
IT USED TO BE A MORTAL SIN TO EAT MEAT ON FIRDAY according to the Catholic Church.........a direct contradiction to the scriptures......But it's not a sin to them any more........maybe now it is only a venial sin... Oh well that can be taken care of with a short or long trip to purgatory... Oh that is unless they get some indulgences or masses said for them??????.....I guess they can change whatever they want; whenever they want......Please,Please......READ YOUR BIBLE and trust it for the Truth of God's Word.......Pray to God only in the name of Jesus Christ
 
Old 01-14-2009, 07:08 PM
 
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we do it because we are following Christ's instructions to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow him (Matt 16:24, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23). It is a practice that dates back to the very earliest days of the Christian Church and as such, would not even fall under the anti-catholic'sls label of "Catholic man-made law". Tertullian and Clement of Alexandria both mention it in their writings.

I don't think any Christian would deny that Christ Himself told us to fast (Matt 6:17-18), that Christ Himself fasted (Matt 4:1-2) as did the Apostle Paul `... in hunger and thirst, in fastings often...'' (2 Cor. 11:27).
 
Old 01-15-2009, 05:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billb7581 View Post
we do it because we are following Christ's instructions to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow him (Matt 16:24, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23). It is a practice that dates back to the very earliest days of the Christian Church and as such, would not even fall under the anti-catholic'sls label of "Catholic man-made law". Tertullian and Clement of Alexandria both mention it in their writings.

I don't think any Christian would deny that Christ Himself told us to fast (Matt 6:17-18), that Christ Himself fasted (Matt 4:1-2) as did the Apostle Paul `... in hunger and thirst, in fastings often...'' (2 Cor. 11:27).
Jesus never told anyone that if they did not fast on "appointed days" or ate meat on Fridays that they would go to hell because they commited a "Mortal Sin"......this however has been the past teaching of Catholicism by the magisterium.............I believe they may have since modified this teaching, "AS THEY DEEM and SEE FIT".........BUT......If you want to know what is REQUIRED and what true fasting really is all about: read Isaiah 58......then you will know what GOD wants.....in HIS WORD.........
 
Old 01-15-2009, 05:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billb7581 View Post
I ask you, How did the early believers become Christians? How did they save their souls? It certainly was not by reading the Bible because there was no New Testament.
Actually they had the Hebrew Scriptures still intact and as the Apostle's original letters were written, then copies of these were made and distributed to the different simple Christian congregations back at that time. There was also the later Greek Septuagint available, since many of the Christians were Greek speaking. Keep in mind that during the era of the Apostles and the early spreading of true Christianity around the Mediterranean, pure worship had not yet been contaminated with pagan concepts and philosphies that were debated heavily in the 3rd & 4th centuries and then fused into Christian belief. It was only after the death of the Apostles than the corruption began in the later half of the 2nd century.
 
Old 01-15-2009, 02:19 PM
 
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Christ established one Church with one set of beliefs (Eph. 4:4–5). He did not establish numerous churches with contradictory beliefs. To see which is the true Church, we must look for the one that has an unbroken historical link to the Church of the New Testament. Catholics are able to show such a link. They trace their leaders, the bishops, back through time, bishop by bishop, all the way to the apostles, and they show that the pope is the lineal successor to Peter, who was the first bishop of Rome. The same thing is true of Catholic beliefs and practices.

Distinctively Catholic beliefs—the papacy, priesthood, invocation of saints, sacraments, veneration of Mary, salvation by something besides "faith alone," purgatory—were evident long before the fourth century, before Constantine. They were believed by Christians before this supposed "paganization" took place.


If you think Catholics worship Mary, pray to statues, and claim the pope is equal to God, then you aren’t rejecting Catholicism, but someone’s misrepresentation of it.
 
Old 01-15-2009, 05:21 PM
 
342 posts, read 538,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billb7581 View Post
Christ established one Church with one set of beliefs (Eph. 4:4–5). He did not establish numerous churches with contradictory beliefs. To see which is the true Church, we must look for the one that has an unbroken historical link to the Church of the New Testament. Catholics are able to show such a link. They trace their leaders, the bishops, back through time, bishop by bishop, all the way to the apostles, and they show that the pope is the lineal successor to Peter, who was the first bishop of Rome. The same thing is true of Catholic beliefs and practices.

Distinctively Catholic beliefs—the papacy, priesthood, invocation of saints, sacraments, veneration of Mary, salvation by something besides "faith alone," purgatory—were evident long before the fourth century, before Constantine. They were believed by Christians before this supposed "paganization" took place.


If you think Catholics worship Mary, pray to statues, and claim the pope is equal to God, then you aren’t rejecting Catholicism, but someone’s misrepresentation of it.
You choose obviously not to reply to my post#107......because there is no defense against it.......Your right when you say that Christ establised ONE Church......."His" Church is the only ONE TRUE CHURCH ..... it is definitely NOT Catholicism.....as we have said before and as others have also said many Catholic teachings are in direct contradiction to the WORD of GOD i.e. the BIBLE.......you can chose to be be blind if that is your choice.......To anyone reading these posts AGAIN I implore you READ GOD' S Word and decide weather or not Catholic teaching is consistant with the BIBLE you will find that many Catholic doctrines are directly contrary.........Pray to GOD and Pray the way He taught the disciples to Pray......"THE LORD'S PRAYER"........worship and VENERATE God only.....You are only saved by trusting in Jesus Christ for your salvation......your denomination Catholic or otherwise cannot save you.....only thru Godly REPENTANCE and Faith in the finished work on the Cross is salvation attainable by GOD"S GRACE ONLY we are SAVED........Jesus said, "It is Finished"

Last edited by Vessif; 01-15-2009 at 05:38 PM..
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