U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-02-2009, 11:40 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,724,376 times
Reputation: 844

Advertisements

Join Date: Jan 2008
796 posts, read 163,531 times
Reputation: 121



Consider what these verses are actually saying:

Ezek 28:2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "`In the pride of your heart you say, "I am a god; I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas." But you are a man and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god.

The problem some people have when it comes verses like these is that they have trouble distinguishing poetic language from literal language. When they see something like:

Ezek 28:14-15 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.

They jump from the subject previously defined (that being Tyre) to a literalistic definition of a guardian cherub. They think the answer must be "It's Satan". But then the literalistic approach falls apart in the next verse:

Ezek 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.

It no longer works to say that Satan was expelled from heaven because of his widespread trade and violence. In context it is impossible to make these verses refer to Satan. There are no Biblical statements which identify Satan as a guardian cherub, that is only a result of the reader inserting their preconceived ideas into the verse.

The chapters around the references used by those who support the Lucifer myth (in both Isaiah and Ezekiel) are prophecies dealing with other nations. Many with the same kind of poetic language. For instance:

Ezek 31:2-9 "Son of man, say to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his hordes: "'Who can be compared with you in majesty? 3 Consider Assyria, once a cedar in Lebanon, with beautiful branches overshadowing the forest; it towered on high, its top above the thick foliage...8 The cedars in the garden of God could not rival it, nor could the pine trees equal its boughs, nor could the plane trees compare with its branches-- no tree in the garden of God could match its beauty. 9 I made it beautiful with abundant branches, the envy of all the trees of Eden in the garden of God. (NIV)

Now maybe one could read these verses and say that again we have a reference to Satan. But that kind of creative exegesis would just lead to other problems - such as who are those which envy the mighty tree in Eden.

Now when the above information is presented someone may say "yes the prophecy is about Babylon or Tyre but it is also about the power which is behind their kingdoms, and that is Satan". But should we ignore all we know about Biblical interpretation so that we can keep a myth about Lucifer that no one prior to the second century had any idea of? A myth which no New Testament author even vaguely referred too?

Some supporters of the Lucifer myth point these verses in Isaiah 14:

You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." (NIV)

It is suggested that this is referencing Satan since these ambitions clearly exceed the reach of any human ruler. But of course - they exceed the reach of Satan also. Besides, delusions of grandeur are not uncommon among earthly rulers. We must remember that these and other verses are filled with poetic language.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-02-2009, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,724,376 times
Reputation: 844
TWIO,
Sorry, this thread is just man-made garbage. If you're going to be a freak-out fundie evangelical at least stick to scripture.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2009, 12:15 AM
 
1,146 posts, read 1,419,243 times
Reputation: 145
Smile How mush people love God

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
TWIO,
Sorry, this thread is just man-made garbage. If you're going to be a freak-out fundie evangelical at least stick to scripture.


An optimist is one who make the best of it when he gets the worst
of it.

A great pleasure in life is doing what others say you can't.

A feather in the hand is better than a bird in the air.

A truly great person never puts away the simplicity of a child.

A warm smile is testimony of a generous nature.

An upset is an opportunity to see the truth.

Attitudes are the forerunners of conditions.

Charity begins at home, and justice begins next door.

What is to give light must endure the burning.

Failure is the opportunity to begin again more intelligently.

Before the beginning of great brilliance, there must be chaos.

I hear and I forget, I see, I remember. I do, and I understand.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2009, 12:35 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,724,376 times
Reputation: 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWordIsOne View Post
An optimist is one who make the best of it when he gets the worst
of it.
The OP is pure mythical trash designed to keep people bound in straight-jackets of mid-evil fear. Like I said, If someone is going to be an enemy of God and contrary to humanity at least try and do it on the basis of something more substantial than non-scriptural myths.

In love,
- Byron
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2009, 12:42 AM
 
1,146 posts, read 1,419,243 times
Reputation: 145
Red face Blessed are the poor in spirit:

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
The OP is pure mythical trash designed to keep people bound in straight-jackets of mid-evil fear. Like I said, If someone is going to be an enemy of God and contrary to humanity at least try and do it on the basis of something more substantial than non-scriptural myths.

In love,
- Byron

Matthew 5:3-12 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Psalms 2:12 Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. [
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2009, 12:50 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,724,376 times
Reputation: 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWordIsOne View Post
Matthew 5:3-12 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Psalms 2:12 Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. [
Look, I am sorry if I hurt you, really. That isn't my intention. I love everyone but when I see certain things...

Again, nothing but love here. I just don't like these myths propagated. If you are hurt then it shows you are just a humble servant and are not pushing this maliciously at all. So I see you as a victim of the myths and apologize for any hurt I caused.

Love,
- Byron
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2009, 12:59 AM
 
1,146 posts, read 1,419,243 times
Reputation: 145
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Join Date: Jan 2008
796 posts, read 163,531 times
Reputation: 121



Consider what these verses are actually saying:

Ezek 28:2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "`In the pride of your heart you say, "I am a god; I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas." But you are a man and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god.

The problem some people have when it comes verses like these is that they have trouble distinguishing poetic language from literal language. When they see something like:

Ezek 28:14-15 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.

They jump from the subject previously defined (that being Tyre) to a literalistic definition of a guardian cherub. They think the answer must be "It's Satan". But then the literalistic approach falls apart in the next verse:

Ezek 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.

It no longer works to say that Satan was expelled from heaven because of his widespread trade and violence. In context it is impossible to make these verses refer to Satan. There are no Biblical statements which identify Satan as a guardian cherub, that is only a result of the reader inserting their preconceived ideas into the verse.

The chapters around the references used by those who support the Lucifer myth (in both Isaiah and Ezekiel) are prophecies dealing with other nations. Many with the same kind of poetic language. For instance:

Ezek 31:2-9 "Son of man, say to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his hordes: "'Who can be compared with you in majesty? 3 Consider Assyria, once a cedar in Lebanon, with beautiful branches overshadowing the forest; it towered on high, its top above the thick foliage...8 The cedars in the garden of God could not rival it, nor could the pine trees equal its boughs, nor could the plane trees compare with its branches-- no tree in the garden of God could match its beauty. 9 I made it beautiful with abundant branches, the envy of all the trees of Eden in the garden of God. (NIV)

Now maybe one could read these verses and say that again we have a reference to Satan. But that kind of creative exegesis would just lead to other problems - such as who are those which envy the mighty tree in Eden.

Now when the above *********** is presented someone may say "yes the prophecy is about Babylon or Tyre but it is also about the power which is behind their kingdoms, and that is Satan". But should we ignore *** we know about Biblical interpretation so that we can keep a myth about Lucifer that no one prior to the second century had any idea of? A myth which no New Testament author even vaguely referred too?

Some supporters of the Lucifer myth point these verses in Isaiah 14:

You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." (NIV)

It is suggested that this is referencing Satan since these ambitions clearly exceed the reach of any human ruler. But of course - they exceed the reach of Satan also. Besides, delusions of grandeur are not uncommon among earthly rulers. We must remember that these and other verses are filled with poetic language.


I like your study, I foregive you
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2009, 01:11 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,724,376 times
Reputation: 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWordIsOne View Post
I like your study, I foregive you
Thank you for the forgiveness and bless you. I need to be more understanding of people (all people). Thanks for helping me see that.
- Byron
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2009, 01:23 AM
 
1,146 posts, read 1,419,243 times
Reputation: 145
Red face Things that are Spirit

t[
Quote:
quote=firstborn888;6812622]Look, I am sorry if I hurt you, really. That isn't my intention. I love everyone but when I see certain things...

Again, nothing but love here. I just don't like these myths propagated. If you are hurt then it shows you are just a humble servant and are not pushing this maliciously at all. So I see you as a victim of the myths and apologize for any hurt I caused.

Love,
- Byron
[/quote]


Romans 8:5 (KJV) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

1 Cor 2:10-11 (KJV) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Cor 9:11-12 (KJV) If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

1 Cor 15:37-41 (KJV) And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

2 Cor 5:5 (KJV) Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2009, 01:30 AM
 
1,146 posts, read 1,419,243 times
Reputation: 145
Red face I am at peace

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Thank you for the forgiveness and bless you. I need to be more understanding of people (all people). Thanks for helping me see that.
- Byron

No one is at fault
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top