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Old 01-04-2009, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,958 posts, read 22,104,197 times
Reputation: 10688

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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRAMERCAT View Post
It does mention in the Bible that those who did not hear the Word would be judged by their conscience.
Yes, I'm vaguely aware of that passage, but you do need to measure it against the verses that say a person must believe in Jesus Christ or be damned.

Quote:
It is ironic that many non-Christians have behaved with more morality than so-called Christians.
Boy, isn't that the truth!

Quote:
I am not really a hell-and-brimstone Christian. I believe more in Jesus commandments to preach the Gospel, resist war (ie, love thy neighbor as thyself) and feed the poor.
I'm happy to hear that, and I can see it in your posts. Well, I'll tell you what I believe. It falls somewhere in between your belief in reincarnation and the belief that all non-Christians will be damned. This is just a brief summary of my belief, but I don't believe that any of us will go to either Heaven or Hell immediately after we die. After all, Revelation speaks of standing before God at the last judgment which won't take place until the Second Coming of Christ. I believe that when we die, our spirits leave our bodies and are accepted into one of two intermediate states of existance.

One of these is Paradise. It is the state into which the righteous are received, regardless of their knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Christ told the repentant thief who hung next to Him on the cross that He would see Him that very day in Paradise. The reason I don't believe that Paradise is the same place as Heaven is that when Jesus first appeared to Mary on Easter morning, He told her not to touch Him because He hadn't yet ascended to His Father. So, He had been to Paradise but not to Heaven.

The other state is Prison. It is where the wicked will reside until such time as they are resurrected. Peter records the visit of Jesus Christ (in spirit form) to the Spirit Prison during the three days during which His body lay in the tomb. During this three day period, He taught the spirits who were in Prison. Some of them repented and were promised forgiveness. Some did not.

I believe that God is not going to judge any of us until every single solitary person who has ever lived has heard the gospel message and has had the opportunity to fully understand and either accept or reject it. I believe that Paradise and the Spirit Prison continue to exist today and that the gospel is being taught now to those who lived their lives without a knowledge of it. It's not being taught by Jesus Christ himself, but by His followers. There are so many reasons people are not Christians, and some of these are in no way the fault of the people. Would the God in whom you believe send someone to Hell simply because he or she was born somewhere in 4th century China or in some tribal village in 10th century Africa? I don't believe He would, but I do believe that Jesus Christ is our Savior and that we must ultimately come to a knowledge of Him and a realization that it is through Him that we can be reconciled to our Father in Heaven. I don't believe it is through reincarnation that this is going to take place, but through God's plan that His Son's gospel be shared with all of His children either in this life or before they are resurrected.
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Old 01-04-2009, 10:13 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,958 posts, read 22,104,197 times
Reputation: 10688
Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
Missionaries are needed to sensitively explain sin and point people to Jesus. Missionaries help by sharing God's Word and pointing out the dangerous consequences of their actions, and we should do this whether it's with people next door, or in another country. God knows how much truth a person has heard, I believe He will judge fairly.
I believe He'll judge fairly, too. But to me, that means providing a chance for everyone to actually hear the message and make a decision on their own as to whether to accept it or not.
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Old 01-04-2009, 10:16 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,635 posts, read 30,241,546 times
Reputation: 30179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I believe He'll judge fairly, too. But to me, that means providing a chance for everyone to actually hear the message and make a decision on their own as to whether to accept it or not.
I believe that too, one way or another whether through creation, or His Word, or another person, God makes Himself known to everyone.
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Old 01-04-2009, 10:23 PM
 
1,146 posts, read 1,418,088 times
Reputation: 145
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
I believe that too, one way or another whether through creation, or His Word, or another person, God makes Himself known to everyone.
So far yes now we have wait for out come. Something very big is coming
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Old 01-05-2009, 08:07 PM
 
4,510 posts, read 4,113,562 times
Reputation: 1501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Yes, I'm vaguely aware of that passage, but you do need to measure it against the verses that say a person must believe in Jesus Christ or be damned.

Boy, isn't that the truth!

I'm happy to hear that, and I can see it in your posts. Well, I'll tell you what I believe. It falls somewhere in between your belief in reincarnation and the belief that all non-Christians will be damned. This is just a brief summary of my belief, but I don't believe that any of us will go to either Heaven or Hell immediately after we die. After all, Revelation speaks of standing before God at the last judgment which won't take place until the Second Coming of Christ. I believe that when we die, our spirits leave our bodies and are accepted into one of two intermediate states of existance.

One of these is Paradise. It is the state into which the righteous are received, regardless of their knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Christ told the repentant thief who hung next to Him on the cross that He would see Him that very day in Paradise. The reason I don't believe that Paradise is the same place as Heaven is that when Jesus first appeared to Mary on Easter morning, He told her not to touch Him because He hadn't yet ascended to His Father. So, He had been to Paradise but not to Heaven.

The other state is Prison. It is where the wicked will reside until such time as they are resurrected. Peter records the visit of Jesus Christ (in spirit form) to the Spirit Prison during the three days during which His body lay in the tomb. During this three day period, He taught the spirits who were in Prison. Some of them repented and were promised forgiveness. Some did not.

I believe that God is not going to judge any of us until every single solitary person who has ever lived has heard the gospel message and has had the opportunity to fully understand and either accept or reject it. I believe that Paradise and the Spirit Prison continue to exist today and that the gospel is being taught now to those who lived their lives without a knowledge of it. It's not being taught by Jesus Christ himself, but by His followers. There are so many reasons people are not Christians, and some of these are in no way the fault of the people. Would the God in whom you believe send someone to Hell simply because he or she was born somewhere in 4th century China or in some tribal village in 10th century Africa? I don't believe He would, but I do believe that Jesus Christ is our Savior and that we must ultimately come to a knowledge of Him and a realization that it is through Him that we can be reconciled to our Father in Heaven. I don't believe it is through reincarnation that this is going to take place, but through God's plan that His Son's gospel be shared with all of His children either in this life or before they are resurrected.
I can see that you have a very detailed view of what happens when you pass from the physical world, and that's fine. I don't. I do choose simply to believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord, and try to live my life as servant to Him. This because I have heard His words and find Him to be a superior being, far above anything human.
I believe that we will all be judged by our actions, and though many who will claim to be His followers, in that day He will disown them, because they did not do His will. I also believe that those who did not hear the Gospel can also be His children, because God can convict us through our conscience, and He is a compassionate God, not someone to condemn or save via dogma.
The mind of God became flesh for our sake, and as Spirit became flesh, so shall flesh become spirit. As our spirits are joined or not joined to God after our earthly experience, so I believe that will be our experience in 'heaven' or 'hell'.
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Old 01-05-2009, 08:21 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,715,191 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRAMERCAT View Post
I can see that you have a very detailed view of what happens when you pass from the physical world, and that's fine. I don't. I do choose simply to believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord, and try to live my life as servant to Him. This because I have heard His words and find Him to be a superior being, far above anything human.
I believe that we will all be judged by our actions, and though many who will claim to be His followers, in that day He will disown them, because they did not do His will. I also believe that those who did not hear the Gospel can also be His children, because God can convict us through our conscience, and He is a compassionate God, not someone to condemn or save via dogma.
The mind of God became flesh for our sake, and as Spirit became flesh, so shall flesh become spirit. As our spirits are joined or not joined to God after our earthly experience, so I believe that will be our experience in 'heaven' or 'hell'.
"I believe" where is your proof supporting your belief? You call it dogma yet you can't explain away the verses you don't like.
Without scripture you can believe all you want; still does not make it true.
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Old 01-05-2009, 08:26 PM
 
4,510 posts, read 4,113,562 times
Reputation: 1501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
You believe, you believe, you believe.....very dangerous words, "I believe" where is your proof supporting your belief? You call scripture dogma because that is what it is literally saying and contradictiong your beliefs.

Without scripture you can believe all you want; still does not make it true.
Faith is belief. There is no objective 'proof' in any scientific, fact-based sense. Dogma doesn't 'prove' your faith, it is adjunct to it.
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Old 01-05-2009, 08:30 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,715,191 times
Reputation: 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRAMERCAT View Post
Faith is belief. There is no objective 'proof' in any scientific, fact-based sense. Dogma doesn't 'prove' your faith, it is adjunct to it.
Faith is not something we generate ourselves, it is a gift of God. If God did not exist then you will not have faith.

(Ephesians 2:8-9)
"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"
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Old 01-05-2009, 08:51 PM
 
4,510 posts, read 4,113,562 times
Reputation: 1501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Faith is not something we generate ourselves, it is a gift of God. If God did not exist then you will not have faith.

(Ephesians 2:8-9)
"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"
You have it a little backwards Faith is what we choose to believe, by our own free will; Grace is what God bestows as the consequence of our choice.
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Old 01-05-2009, 09:04 PM
 
Location: Illinois
2,415 posts, read 2,424,736 times
Reputation: 336
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRAMERCAT View Post
Anyone else feel the same?
...of course you do....all things are possible....and when I am reincarnated, or we see evidence of the human race learning from the past , and brothers stop killing brothers it is hard to think man is evolving to a higher level. Which doesn't preclude getting back to the GARDEN where our bones will be converted are by an apple tree
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