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Old 01-06-2009, 11:27 AM
 
25,165 posts, read 48,460,049 times
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Are you not familiar with sarcasm?? Ugh. Please grow a funny bone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt & Light View Post
It would appear that the root cause of your issue has been identified and confirmed by you.
Matthew 23: 12
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Old 01-06-2009, 11:29 AM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
3,978 posts, read 7,634,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt & Light View Post
It would appear that the root cause of your issue has been identified and confirmed by you.
Matthew 23: 12

Yes, and I think the following verse applies also..

Matthew 23:13
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Old 01-06-2009, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Florida
102 posts, read 272,493 times
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Church is a way for many to find a sense of belonging, to feel righteous, to network and gain a good reputation, to give meaning to their own realities, to cry and sing as a way to vent emotionally, to sing and dance without getting drunk, and for fear of going to hell and the after life. I guess it depends on your personality and your perception. I think it is sometimes silly and sometimes annoying even though I believe there really is a God.
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Old 01-06-2009, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Southwestern Ont., Canada
39 posts, read 60,571 times
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Without the Holy Spirit, scripture at home or in a church is lifeless. There are many churches , who hinder the Holy Spirit. 'Have a form of Godliness but deny the power thereof.' I find when it presented in truth with the Holy Spirit leading, not man, it is very powerful and lifegiving. When man interferes, that's when we have misrepresentation of scripture and God.
If a person does not have the gift of the Holy Spirit it will seem meaningless, as faith is a gift from God.
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Old 01-06-2009, 12:14 PM
 
178 posts, read 349,621 times
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What is "church"?

Is it what the scriptures tell us, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Matt 18:20

or

Is it the building where the person in charge went seeking "permission" from the government to start a "non-profit" business so as to receive the "benefits" and "priviledges" of tax-free status from the fiction in law known as the "US Government" in the form of a 501(c)3 organization?

"Church", as we know it today is so far removed from what Jesus taught that it is astounding.

What does "Preach" mean?

Believers are to Preach God's Word (2 Timothy 4:2; Acts 20:7-9; 1 Timothy 4:6-16). Also mentioned is "exhort" and "teach" in these verses. Far more significant, however, is the entire notion of "preaching". There were no one-man lectures (monologues) in the early Church until Greek philosophy was imported into the Church. The traveling philosophers (peripatetics) were popular in the Greco-Roman world, and were too easily imitated among Believers. What passes for "preaching" in our day has absolutely no Biblical warrant. Nowhere in the New Testament is there an example of a "sermon" in the Christ's assemblies.

We need to emphasize this point. If the Apostle Paul were invited into one of our meetings and saw only one man give an oration patterned after the Greek philosophers of his day, with absolutely no interaction with the "laymen," Paul would demand to know "What's going on here?" This modern pattern bears no resemblance to the New Testament pattern, although it is unwittingly patterned after ancient Greek itinerant moralists. The "sermon" is an unscriptural tradition, imported from Greco-Roman paganism. Some preachers, of course, fail to meet even the standards of the Greek philosophers. Their "preaching" is pure entertainment.

Acts 20 is used to establish many modern practices of the church, and yet it supports none of them. Consider "preaching." The Greek word for "preach" in Acts 20:7,9 is word #1256, dialegomai: it's a "dialogue" not a "monologue." Dialegomai means "to converse, discourse with one, argue, discuss". It comes from the word "di" which means "a combining form meaning 'two', 'double'." We do not have "dialogue and discussion" in most "churches," and therefore do not obey Acts 20:7. Does the church really believe that Paul gave an uninterrupted lecture -- for twelve hours?!? Dialegomai is also translated as "reasoned" in Acts 17:2, where Paul "reasoned" in the synagogue out of the scriptures. Paul "reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath" (Acts 18:4,19). In church, the preacher doesn't "reason" with anybody, but simply talks with no chance of interaction with those in the audience. Dialegomai is also translated as "disputed" in Acts 17:17, where Paul "disputed he in the synagogue", and in Acts 19:8 where he was "disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God." In Church, the pastor does not give anyone the chance to "dispute" or "question" him. Is this biblical?

For now, note the inescapable fact that there simply was no "preaching" or "sermon" as we popularly conceive it today. When we proclaim the Gospel to our neighbor, we engage in "official and professional instruction" as priest-kings of Christ! The gates of hell are assaulted and overcome by our "informal discussion". Modern churches have replaced the discussion and animated conversation of the New Testament with "sermons," an invention of the Greeks, and a man-made tradition.
As a result, I cannot obey the Scriptural commands as cited in 1 Corinthians 14:26,31 when I "attend church"; I cannot edify and prophesy. Neither can I obey 1 Timothy 4:13 and 2 Timothy 4:2 when I "attend church"; I cannot exhort, I cannot "teach", except through hymns (but not of my choosing). Only one person exhorts in a "church"; the whole congregation violates Hebrews 10:24-25, at least when they are "attending church." Perhaps they obey these commands later in the afternoon, when in colloquial discussion they bring all thoughts captive to Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5), but certainly not during Church services.
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Old 01-06-2009, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Denver, Colorado U.S.A.
14,174 posts, read 23,313,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StirringWaters View Post
There are dead churches out there. As Christians, we do have a walk to follow...knowledge to gain. If we do not get it from one place, it could be we can get it from another.
Isn't "dead church" the term charismatics use to describe churchs that use traditional liturgy because the don't jump around, talk in tounges, wave hands, etc.? I thought I heard a little girl use that term in "Jesus Camp".
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Old 01-06-2009, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Florida
102 posts, read 272,493 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marianinark View Post
I cannot agree with this..we ( the church) gather together to strengthen one another in the Lord. We need this to keep us strong in our faith. Worshipping Him is included, but it is a daily thing to do, not just when the church is assembled.
Again...'church' is the body of christ. It is not a place that we go to. The assemble...i.e., the gathering together, is what the church does.

Everyone who obeys the gospel and are added to the number of believers are members of the body of Christ. Just as the members of the physical body are not separate from one another, members of this body of Christ are not either. One part of the human body cannot survive apart from the rest of the body.

We cannot survive as parts of the body if we separate ourselves from it. It is God's will that we come together as a body. What we do, when we come together, is recorded in the scriptures. It was that way from the beginning of the church, and it will continue to be that way as long as the heavens and earth remain.

I used to believe this 100%.
I grew up in the Christian church as my mother was a director, worship leader, bible study group leader and more. Now, I question people in the churches who are passive aggressive and spread little lies and rumors and no one notices it as if is it under their radar. People argue and do not agree on so many issues and some insist they know it all within churches. Also, how do you explain the people in some churches that secretly have evil intentions...like the BTK serial killer to be specific? I am sorry for sounding so negative and I wished I could have better trust and appreciation for church. Something seems to be missing in the churches...is it Gods presence? No human knows exactly what God wants or expects from us and wouldn't it be vain to say so. All you can do is repeat what has been written in God's word and pray that it is all true and never had been tainted, right?
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Old 01-06-2009, 12:22 PM
 
Location: MI
1,289 posts, read 1,903,145 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denverian View Post
Isn't "dead church" the term charismatics use to describe churchs that use traditional liturgy because the don't jump around, talk in tounges, wave hands, etc.? I thought I heard a little girl use that term in "Jesus Camp".
Oh, my. I have no idea. I've heard the term tossed about by different denominations...about their own.
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Old 01-06-2009, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Denver, Colorado U.S.A.
14,174 posts, read 23,313,296 times
Reputation: 10428
Quote:
Originally Posted by StirringWaters View Post
Oh, my. I have no idea. I've heard the term tossed about by different denominations...about their own.
Maybe it's not a widely used term. It could also refer to a church losing members, I would think.
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Old 01-06-2009, 01:10 PM
 
25,165 posts, read 48,460,049 times
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Good post Florida. Church congregations seem to be very cold and phoney for the most parts.

You mentioned BTK and forgot about the other serial killer that dressed up as a clown for his children's birthday party. Anyways, that guy was also a church member and in the choir. Don't forget Catholic Priests have a reputation for being dirty perverts too.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweating in Florida View Post
I used to believe this 100%.
I grew up in the Christian church as my mother was a director, worship leader, bible study group leader and more. Now, I question people in the churches who are passive aggressive and spread little lies and rumors and no one notices it as if is it under their radar. People argue and do not agree on so many issues and some insist they know it all within churches. Also, how do you explain the people in some churches that secretly have evil intentions...like the BTK serial killer to be specific? I am sorry for sounding so negative and I wished I could have better trust and appreciation for church. Something seems to be missing in the churches...is it Gods presence? No human knows exactly what God wants or expects from us and wouldn't it be vain to say so. All you can do is repeat what has been written in God's word and pray that it is all true and never had been tainted, right?
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