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Old 01-07-2009, 07:05 AM
 
225 posts, read 313,190 times
Reputation: 115

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
They offered them equal citizenship as Israelis. Not all Israelis are Jews, they are Christian and Muslim as well, just as not all Palestinians are Muslim, there are Christians and Jews as well...
You really have not convinced me that the Palestinians should trust Israel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
What you seem to be missing is that the terror groups, whether they be the Fatah, Hamas or the PLO are the problem. If they were gone there would be no fighting because the normal Palestinians would be welcome to Join Israel and become citizens, but imagine the lies that have been beat into all those innocent people. Just today a school was bombed killing 30, the locals took the side of the Israelis and confirmed that Hamas was using the innocents for human sheilds and to make Israel look bad.
I don't think anyone is arguing that Israel wants to exterminate anyone. In any case, as I have been arguing, the Palestinians don't use schools and civilian shields because they are insane maniacs, but because they are engaged in a completely asymmetrical battle. This speaks to my original comment about how bad your life has to be before becoming a human bomb looks good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
You cannot have a legitimate peace agreement with a terrorist group, they will ********* every time, just look at Yassir Arafat, he would say one thing in an interview and then 5 minutes later get the crowds going by shouting death to Israel.
Agreed. But it still does not justify boycotting your political opponent's chosen leadership. I'm sure the Palestinians know this as well, yet they democratically picked the PLO. I guess they don't have much faith in the promised goodwill of Israel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
I do sympathize with both the common Palestinian and the common Israeli, they are the real victims and the only way they are going to be safe is to destroy the terror groups and that is what Israel is trying to do. Palestine is getting far more in aid from the US than Israel as well as getting a monthly check from Israel which Israel withheld for a month to get the peace agreement in June. Thing is they were told they could not withhold such funds in the future even though it worked to get the ceasefire that was never honored. Israel is actually being forced to finance their own distruction.
Let's pick this apart for a minute. Are you saying that Palestine gets far more from the US than the US gives to Israel? I don't think so. But you might be saying that the US gives more to Palestine that Israel does, which I am honestly not sure of. What I have read is Israel uses promised payments to badly cash-strapped Palestine as incentives for particular action (you speak to this but fail to mention how undemocratic it is), like the US does with economic sanctions. The US does it to Palestine too.

So, let's cut to the chase. What should be done there? I'm for dropping all aid to Israel as well as the PLO. There is no way to justify $3B in unstructured annual aid to Israel other than to admit the US has a serious abundance of pro-Israeli lobbyists and a guilt complex about Jews. Supporting Israel completely undermines America's world position.
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:23 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,742,301 times
Reputation: 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by jojajn View Post
So we must kill, for what? That act in and of itself demonstrates total lack of faith in God. If God is sovereign, He would not want us to sin in His behalf.
Who is killing? I am not understanding your post
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 5,040,283 times
Reputation: 627
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigthirsty View Post
1. Does the Israeli government want to be on par with Hamas?

2. Dropping cluster bombs in high population density areas is slaughtering.
OK someone is not understand what the bombs are that Hamas is firing verses what Israle is firing. So let me educate those who have no idea what is what.

A cluster bomb is not what you may think it is and you have been lied to. The Israeli "cluster" bombs are actually multiple guided warheads containing up to 100 seperated mini missles , all smart bombs for maximum effect on particular targets and are fired on specific targets that are known to be terror stronghold, no matter what the lying media may tell you.

Hamas on the otherhand have their own version of cluster bombs which explain the limited range. They take conventional warheads, remove all insulation and filler and replace it with nails, rocks, ball bearings, just about anything that can cause maximum damage when exploded. They actuall become shrapnel bombs and they dont care about distance or accuracy because they just want to inflict maximun casualties.

If you choose not to believe me ask anyone who has explosive ordinance experience and they will confirm the difference in weaponry.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 5,040,283 times
Reputation: 627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heracles View Post
You really have not convinced me that the Palestinians should trust Israel.
Well than I guess you will just have to continue to believe the lies.

Quote:
I don't think anyone is arguing that Israel wants to exterminate anyone. In any case, as I have been arguing, the Palestinians don't use schools and civilian shields because they are insane maniacs, but because they are engaged in a completely asymmetrical battle. This speaks to my original comment about how bad your life has to be before becoming a human bomb looks good.
Hamas is using the innocent Palestinians as human sheilds and in some cases forcing them to wear suicide vests. The Palestinian people are not the problem it is their leaders and Hamas. Hamas makes their lives miserable and blames it on the enemy. They take their food, their money and resell these things and use the money to purchase weapon when none are legitimately needed. They tell the people that it is Israel not giving them what they need or the US not giving them what they need all along hording the items for selfish reasons. Yassir Arafat died with billions of dollars stolen from the Palestinians people, Billions that could have made their lives so much better. This shows the scope of the greed of the terrorists.



Quote:
Agreed. But it still does not justify boycotting your political opponent's chosen leadership. I'm sure the Palestinians know this as well, yet they democratically picked the PLO. I guess they don't have much faith in the promised goodwill of Israel.
There were no other choices, the PLO eliminated the competition, murdered legitimate candidates so it seemed like a legitimate vote but was not. They did not democratically pick the PLO, there was no other options that survived the campain, literally.



Quote:
Let's pick this apart for a minute. Are you saying that Palestine gets far more from the US than the US gives to Israel? I don't think so. But you might be saying that the US gives more to Palestine that Israel does, which I am honestly not sure of. What I have read is Israel uses promised payments to badly cash-strapped Palestine as incentives for particular action (you speak to this but fail to mention how undemocratic it is), like the US does with economic sanctions. The US does it to Palestine too.
Yes they do and they even get money from the EU, UN and Israel while not getting a dime from the Arab nations. Israel tried to withhold the funds they are ordered to pay Palestine in order to aquire a legitimate ceasefire. They got the ceasefire but were reprimanded by the EU and UN for using such tactics. Now they like the US has to pay those funds to the UN and the UN pays Palestine. The problem with that is the UN has been caught embezzling these funds while accusing the Israelis and the US of withholding them again. Corruption runs deep in these organizations. But believe what you like, facts are facts.

Quote:
So, let's cut to the chase. What should be done there? I'm for dropping all aid to Israel as well as the PLO. There is no way to justify $3B in unstructured annual aid to Israel other than to admit the US has a serious abundance of pro-Israeli lobbyists and a guilt complex about Jews. Supporting Israel completely undermines America's world position.
Let Israel finish their work.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:42 AM
 
4,439 posts, read 8,218,818 times
Reputation: 1469
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
OK someone is not understand what the bombs are that Hamas is firing verses what Israle is firing. So let me educate those who have no idea what is what.

A cluster bomb is not what you may think it is and you have been lied to. The Israeli "cluster" bombs are actually multiple guided warheads containing up to 100 seperated mini missles , all smart bombs for maximum effect on particular targets and are fired on specific targets that are known to be terror stronghold, no matter what the lying media may tell you.

Hamas on the otherhand have their own version of cluster bombs which explain the limited range. They take conventional warheads, remove all insulation and filler and replace it with nails, rocks, ball bearings, just about anything that can cause maximum damage when exploded. They actuall become shrapnel bombs and they dont care about distance or accuracy because they just want to inflict maximun casualties.

If you choose not to believe me ask anyone who has explosive ordinance experience and they will confirm the difference in weaponry.
Robin,

I do appreciate the lesson in ballistics that I didn't ask for. I notice you conveniently didn't respond to my #1 point. Alas I can only respond to your response now (concerning weaponry). Not a single country in the world condones Israels use of cluster bombs. Zero. Nada. Zilch. Including good ole' Uncle Sam.

Its akin being punched in the face.. then getting in a tank and and blowing the puncher up. Its disproportionate to the initial attack.

Now I understand Israel has a right to defend herself. However, even Amos Oz the famed Israeli novelist (who initially supported the strikes) now has stated that Israel has taken their attacks too far.

See in the end the overwhelming force Israel is using on an already depleted population (depleted because of Israel) leaves a bad taste in the mouth of the world.

This is not a country they are invading. By international law Israel doesn't "own" Gaza. Instead they are invading a population in limbo that is governed by a lunatic few but populated by a poor depleted many.

I don't agrue the "strikes". I argue the magnitude of the strikes.

Yes rockets from Gaza are bad. Guess what.. don't build you effing house near Gaza. You'll say "well its their right as citizens of Israel to build their houses there". Thats true.. However, the Palestinians removed from those lands didn't ask to move. They were RE-moved. So don't wonder why you get stung when you put your hand in a bee hive.
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 5,040,283 times
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bigthirsty, as for your #1, no Israel is not trying to be an par with Hamas.

As for the rest, cluster bombs were alluded to as being used against Lebennon not Gaza. They are misclasified as cluster bombs to shine a bad light on Israel for using something they are not, more disinformation.

Please answer a question no one has attempted to answer. How many Israelis have been killed in 2008 by the over 2000, close to 3000 bombings perpetrated by Hamas?
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:32 AM
 
17,751 posts, read 15,691,811 times
Reputation: 6391
The main point of this topic is us. What do we support? Who do we support?

Shifting to Palestinians they are now poorly led and Hamas is certainly not a just cause. It was initially encouraged by Israel as an opposition to the PLO. Thus Israel is no democratic force externally at all much the same as the US which promotes democracy internally more than it does externally. It is very difficult for people to gain control over their own lives when external funding is given to a corrupt minority. This is not far from the situation.

What is a Romans 12 response? After 9/11 we have pored trillions into war. If we had instead gone on world missions to help mankind with trillions where would we be? Hated? Have a look at Cicily. We have followed the vendetta model of the world and the cycle will continue.

I see little Christian support for Hamas. Good. Support Palestinians in a way to free them from this no win situation and stop giving pretexts for their radicals. What is troubling is the support of Israel which clearly is not acting in our faith.
What retrains Hamas is their capability. What retrains Israel is world opinion. Neither impresses me.
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:36 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,742,301 times
Reputation: 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
The main point of this topic is us. What do we support? Who do we support?

Shifting to Palestinians they are now poorly led and Hamas is certainly not a just cause. It was initially encouraged by Israel as an opposition to the PLO. Thus Israel is no democratic force externally at all much the same as the US which promotes democracy internally more than it does externally. It is very difficult for people to gain control over their own lives when external funding is given to a corrupt minority. This is not far from the situation.

What is a Romans 12 response? After 9/11 we have pored trillions into war. If we had instead gone on world missions to help mankind with trillions where would we be? Hated? Have a look at Cicily. We have followed the vendetta model of the world and the cycle will continue.

I see little Christian support for Hamas. Good. Support Palestinians in a way to free them from this no win situation and stop giving pretexts for their radicals. What is troubling is the support of Israel which clearly is not acting in our faith.
What retrains Hamas is their capability. What retrains Israel is world opinion. Neither impresses me.
That's like me being black decide to pour millions into helping Klu Klux Klan countries for the sake of peace and helping my fellow man. Just like my weak analogy; it sounds nice but hardly realistic because the big picture is not coming into focus.

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 01-07-2009 at 11:46 AM..
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:40 AM
 
17,751 posts, read 15,691,811 times
Reputation: 6391
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
bigthirsty, as for your #1, no Israel is not trying to be an par with Hamas.

As for the rest, cluster bombs were alluded to as being used against Lebennon not Gaza. They are misclasified as cluster bombs to shine a bad light on Israel for using something they are not, more disinformation.

Please answer a question no one has attempted to answer. How many Israelis have been killed in 2008 by the over 2000, close to 3000 bombings perpetrated by Hamas?
Then why are people having their limbs blown off? What is the correct classification? Do you think that they would be glad to hear that these were misclassified?
Since the end of the war, over 30 Lebanese have been killed and over 200 injured, many permanently disabled from the loss of a limb after accidentally triggering an unexploded bomblet. The state provides no direct support for cluster bomb victims.
...
ZAWTAR WEST, 22 January 2008 (IRIN) - Deminers clearing Israeli-dropped cluster bombs in south Lebanon are turning up an average of 10 new sites per month, while Israel continues to ignore requests for data that would assist clearing the estimated one million unexploded bomblets, which continue to kill and maim civilians and decimate rural livelihoods. A single cluster bomb can disperse hundreds of bomblets.
...
Around one million of the bomblets failed to explode on impact, leaving roads, schools, homes and fields littered with lethal explosives that detonate when touched, making them a danger similar to anti-personnel mines.
They clearly have a pattern of disregarding civilian casualties. They are lying. All you need to do is lie once. I don't believe liars especially when the evidence goes against them.
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Missouri
661 posts, read 1,055,055 times
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Quote:
There is no such thing as innocent people, bible says, there is none good but God, we are wretches in God's sight and to be honest we all deserve a horrible fate for breaking God's Laws, but He saved us anyway
Very scary! So the slaughter of innocents and children are innocents as far as Im concerned, is Gods will and there is no one good but God? Its amazing how people can have their minds so twisted that they will believe what is black is white, what is abhorrent is good, just because it comes from the Bible?

Actually, it doesnt look like God has changed from the Old Testament. Anyone who gets in the way of His chosen people deserves genocide? And why exactly are the Jews Gods chosen ones again? What have they done to deserve that honour, that was any better than the nations round about. Their OT history is filled with disobedience, superstition and serving other Gods. The times they 'left' God far outnumber the years they were faithful.

If, according to the Bible, God is the only one who is 'good', then perhaps its time to redefine the word 'good' as we know it today, because it sure does not fit in with the genocidal, baby murdering, petty, jealous dictator of the OT.
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