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Old 02-08-2009, 02:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Mystic if you went on the street witnessing to unbelievers and saying that, they would have you committed.
It is likely to be better received than you must OBEY this invisible guy in the sky or you will be doomed to eternal punishment when you die. Especially since they don't believe this invisible guy exists. But a "natural" development process for that part of us that we recognize is not physical (our consciousness) and which might experience different consequences based on our development of it during this life . . . that might penetrate.
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Old 02-08-2009, 02:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
ALL spiritual souls whose development attains the basic characteristics of love (holy spirit) that Jesus exhibited so clearly and completely (unto death) . . . are Jesus's spiritual heirs and will be reborn as Spirit (not miscarry or abort) . . . however they achieved it and whatever you want to call it.
Luke 12:10 (King James Version)

10And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

It is the blasphemy against the holy spirit (failure to follow the guidance and adopt the Spirit of Jesus's love) that precludes your soul from developing properly.
And as evidenced in Mark 3:22-30, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is attributing and ascribing the miracles and teachings of Jesus the Christ to something other than the power of God (ie, spirit of the devil or humanistic). So again, if someone denies Christ openly and willingly, are they still written into the Lamb's book of life because of their works which may emulate Christ? One must still accept the gift Christ willingly and by choice, right?
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Old 02-08-2009, 02:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by antjraf View Post
And as evidenced in Mark 3:22-30, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is attributing and ascribing the miracles and teachings of Jesus the Christ to something other than the power of God (ie, spirit of the devil or humanistic). So again, if someone denies Christ openly and willingly, are they still written into the Lamb's book of life because of their works which may emulate Christ? One must still accept the gift Christ willingly and by choice, right?
Nowhere in that scripture does it say what you claim it says, antjraf. And to repeat the relevant parts of Luke 12:10 (King James Version) and reinforcing with Mrk and Matt:

10And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Mark 3:28-29 (King James Version)

28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Matthew 12:31 (King James Version)

31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

You seem not to understand that Jesus is available to accept or reject in EVERY human consciousness as the holy spirit (Comforter) . . . THAT is where the real acceptance or rejection occurs . . . within their soul and the state of mind (spirit) it has. It cannot be compatible with the holy spirit and its urgings within them and be unacceptable to God . . . whatever they believe or say or do in that state of mind. Their overt rejection is more apt to be a rejection of the absurd literalist and fundamentalist garbage presented as necessary to belief in Jesus (or any of the other beliefs and precepts of men) . . . than rejection of the holy spirit of Jesus within.

Last edited by MysticPhD; 02-08-2009 at 02:59 PM..
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Nowhere in that scripture does it say what you claim it says, antjraf. And to repeat the relevant parts of Luke 12:10 (King James Version) and reinforcing with Mrk and Matt:

10And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Mark 3:28-29 (King James Version)

28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Matthew 12:31 (King James Version)

31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

You seem not to understand that Jesus is available to accept or reject in EVERY human consciousness as the holy spirit (Comforter) . . . THAT is where the real acceptance or rejection occurs . . . within their soul and the state of mind (spirit) it has. It cannot be compatible with the holy spirit and its urgings within them and be unacceptable to God . . . whatever they believe or say or do in that state of mind. Their overt rejection is more apt to be a rejection of the absurd literalist and fundamentalist garbage presented as necessary to belief in Jesus (or any of the other beliefs and precepts of men) . . . than rejection of the holy spirit of Jesus within.
Here is the contextof Matthew 3

22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

This is clear that Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for blaspheming against the Holy Spirit since they accused Jesus of casting out demons in the name of Beelzebub rather than God. It is a clear case that denying Christ is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.

Luke 12:8-9 - Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.


More evidence that denying Christ is a form of blasphemy which will not be forgiven.
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Old 02-08-2009, 07:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antjraf View Post
Here is the contextof Matthew 3

22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
ALL this says is that they accused Jesus of casting out devils etc. using Satan's power. He points out to them the ridiculousness of the charge since evil cannot cast out evil, etc. . . . NOTHING about blasphemy.
Quote:
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
The ALL is this verse seems incontrovertible.
Quote:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
With THIS being the ONLY exception.
Quote:
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
And THIS being the reason WHY> If you blaspheme the holy spirit then you have an unclean spirit.
Quote:
This is clear that Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for blaspheming against the Holy Spirit since they accused Jesus of casting out demons in the name of Beelzebub rather than God. It is a clear case that denying Christ is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.
It is not only not clear . . . it says no such thing as shown above.
Quote:
Luke 12:8-9 - Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
Well . . . I'm not sure what being denied before the angels of God means exactly . . . probably not great . . . but since ALL sins and blasphemies will be forgiven with the ONLY exception being blasphemy against the holy spirit . . . I'm pretty sure it isn't damning.
Quote:
More evidence that denying Christ is a form of blasphemy which will not be forgiven.
Not the way I see it, antjraf.
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Old 02-08-2009, 07:35 PM
 
178 posts, read 348,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
ALL this says is that they accused Jesus of casting out devils etc. using Satan's power. He points out to them the ridiculousness of the charge since evil cannot cast out evil, etc. . . . NOTHING about blasphemy. The ALL is this verse seems incontrovertible. With THIS being the ONLY exception. And THIS being the reason WHY> If you blaspheme the holy spirit then you have an unclean spirit. It is not only not clear . . . it says no such thing as shown above. Well . . . I'm not sure what being denied before the angels of God means exactly . . . probably not great . . . but since ALL sins and blasphemies will be forgiven with the ONLY exception being blasphemy against the holy spirit . . . I'm pretty sure it isn't damning.Not the way I see it, antjraf.
So your assertion is that at verse 29, Jesus decided to interject a non-relative exclamation of blasphemy while conversing with the Pharisees about the subject of them denying that He is using the power of God. Why would you think verse 29 is not related to the subject matter at hand?

Before you state that you are "pretty sure it isn't damning" you should reconcile the admission of your "not sure what being denied before angels of God means" statement.
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Old 02-08-2009, 09:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antjraf View Post
So your assertion is that at verse 29, Jesus decided to interject a non-relative exclamation of blasphemy while conversing with the Pharisees about the subject of them denying that He is using the power of God. Why would you think verse 29 is not related to the subject matter at hand?
Because verse 28 made a powerful ALL encompassing statement about sins and blasphemies that might be misinterpreted without the additional disclaimer and exception in verse 29.
Quote:
Before you state that you are "pretty sure it isn't damning" you should reconcile the admission of your "not sure what being denied before angels of God means" statement.
Well . . . if it was intended as you are trying to imply . . . it would have more directly talked about eternal damnation . . . as he did with the holy spirit blasphemy.
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Old 02-09-2009, 12:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Because verse 28 made a powerful ALL encompassing statement about sins and blasphemies that might be misinterpreted without the additional disclaimer and exception in verse 29.
Well . . . if it was intended as you are trying to imply . . . it would have more directly talked about eternal damnation . . . as he did with the holy spirit blasphemy.
So if the Holy Spirit dwells within us, and Christ is the only way we can achieve this, then...

How can someone who denies Christ not blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, since it is only by Christ that we become indwelt by it?
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Old 02-09-2009, 01:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by antjraf View Post
So if the Holy Spirit dwells within us, and Christ is the only way we can achieve this, then...

How can someone who denies Christ not blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, since it is only by Christ that we become indwelt by it?
Your " only by Christ that we become indwelt by it" refers to the crucifixion and rebirth as Spirit. It was THEN that Jesus' holy spirit was made available to ALL human consciousness simultaneously (became "indwelt" . . . without need for his physical presence . . . as our Comforter). All we need to do is access it as we did our own conscience. Unfortunately, we are not all ready, willing and able to access it . . . and that is reflected in our attitudes and behaviors. The accepting and belief in Jesus is an internal event . . . since it refers to following the urgings of his spirit within us. It is for this reason we are to pray in secret (not for public consumption.) It "exercises" our internal connection to Jesus. The more exercise . . . the "fitter" the connection. ALL public acknowledgments and displays are for other people, period.
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Old 02-09-2009, 01:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
ALL this says is that they accused Jesus of casting out devils etc. using Satan's power. He points out to them the ridiculousness of the charge since evil cannot cast out evil, etc. . . . NOTHING about blasphemy. The ALL is this verse seems incontrovertible. With THIS being the ONLY exception. And THIS being the reason WHY> If you blaspheme the holy spirit then you have an unclean spirit. It is not only not clear . . . it says no such thing as shown above. Well . . . I'm not sure what being denied before the angels of God means exactly . . . probably not great . . . but since ALL sins and blasphemies will be forgiven with the ONLY exception being blasphemy against the holy spirit . . . I'm pretty sure it isn't damning.Not the way I see it, antjraf.
I know/understand this 'discussion' is between the 2 of you, but I feel I need to interject something here....

Quote:
If you blaspheme the holy spirit then you have an unclean spirit.

Here's the verse:
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

This verse isn't saying "the blasphemer" has an unclean spirit. It's saying "They" (The scribes) said, He (Christ) had an unclean spirit.
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