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Old 02-09-2009, 01:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
I30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

This verse isn't saying "the blasphemer" has an unclean spirit. It's saying "They" (The scribes) said, He (Christ) had an unclean spirit.
It is an idiomatic method of quoting, mshipmate . . . but thanks for the post. Be well, Mystic
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Old 02-09-2009, 02:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It is an idiomatic method of quoting, mshipmate . . . but thanks for the post. Be well, Mystic

I know what an idiom is...So...ah...what's your point?
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Old 02-09-2009, 02:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
I know what an idiom is...So...ah...what's your point?
It is the equivalent of saying "As they say" . . . the pronoun "they" does not refer back to the Scribes . . . it is a generic reference to an existing adage and refers to the preceding verse to explain why there is danger of "eternal damnation" . . . because (as they say) . . . He hath an unclean spirit.This probing further back for the pronoun referent (8 verses) is a common error. But it shouldn't be made when the object is immediately preceding its use.
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Old 02-09-2009, 03:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It is the equivalent of saying "As they say" . . . the pronoun "they" does not refer back to the Scribes . . . This probing further back for the pronoun referent (8 verses) is a common error. But it shouldn't be made when the object is immediately preceding its use.

Quote:
it is a generic reference to an existing adage and refers to the preceding verse to explain why there is danger of "eternal damnation" . . . because (as they say) . . . He hath an unclean spirit.
Say what you like, 'as they say' means the same as, 'the scribes said', and common sense says the 'they' IS the Scribes. Especially when you take the whole context of those passages. They (the scribes) are the ones who said Christ cast out demons by Beelzebub, there by saying Christ had an unclean spirit.
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Old 02-09-2009, 03:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Say what you like, 'as they say' means the same as, 'the scribes said', and common sense says the 'they' IS the Scribes. Especially when you take the whole context of those passages. They (the scribes) are the ones who said Christ cast out demons by Beelzebub, there by saying Christ had an unclean spirit.
You are free to believe that the pronoun refers back 8 verses instead of to the one immediately preceding its use . . . but you are not understanding the use of idiom. Perhaps a more elaborate expansion will make it more obvious.

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation because (as they said in days of old), "He hath an unclean spirit."
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Old 02-09-2009, 08:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You are free to believe that the pronoun refers back 8 verses instead of to the one immediately preceding its use . . . but you are not understanding the use of idiom. Perhaps a more elaborate expansion will make it more obvious.

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation because (as they said in days of old), "He hath an unclean spirit."
How do you say, with no uncertainty, that this line from verse 30 is an idiom rather than a direct response to the charge of the Pharisees that Jesus casted out devils by Beelzebub? This seems to me as adding to the meaning of His statement so as to fit your view of the irrelavance of denying Christ? Can you provide the exegesis for other instances when the phrase "Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit." is translated as being an off-topic idiom?
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Old 02-09-2009, 09:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by antjraf View Post
How do you say, with no uncertainty, that this line from verse 30 is an idiom rather than a direct response to the charge of the Pharisees that Jesus casted out devils by Beelzebub? This seems to me as adding to the meaning of His statement so as to fit your view of the irrelavance of denying Christ? Can you provide the exegesis for other instances when the phrase "Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit." is translated as being an off-topic idiom?
Because 3754 they said 3004 , He hath 2192 an unclean 169 spirit 4151

3004. lego leg'-o a primary verb; properly, to "lay" forth, i.e. (figuratively) relate (in words (usually of systematic or set discourse; whereas 2036 and 5346 generally refer to an individual expression or speech respectively; while 4483 is properly to break silence merely, and 2980 means an extended or random harangue)); by implication, to mean:--ask, bid, boast, call, describe, give out, name, put forth, say(-ing, on), shew, speak, tell, utter.
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Old 02-10-2009, 12:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Because 3754 they said 3004 , He hath 2192 an unclean 169 spirit 4151

3004. lego leg'-o a primary verb; properly, to "lay" forth, i.e. (figuratively) relate (in words (usually of systematic or set discourse; whereas 2036 and 5346 generally refer to an individual expression or speech respectively; while 4483 is properly to break silence merely, and 2980 means an extended or random harangue)); by implication, to mean:--ask, bid, boast, call, describe, give out, name, put forth, say(-ing, on), shew, speak, tell, utter.
legO

1) to say, to speak
a) affirm over, maintain
b) to teach
c) to exhort, advise, to command, direct
d) to point out with words, intend, mean, mean to say
e) to call by name, to call, name
f) to speak out, speak of, mention

Here are other instances of "legO" used in scripture from Matthew 4...

5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

6 And saith (3004) unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.


7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith (3004) unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith (3004) Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;

13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:

14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,(3004)

15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;

16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say (3004), Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called (3004) Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
19 And he saith (3004) unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.


I guess we must just agree to disagree here. But, at the very least, we do so in a respectful and brotherly manner, as displayed by our discourse before others, and keep the focus on Christ and His Glory rather than us and our own. I presume, that on this notion, we can close our discussion in agreement.
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Old 02-10-2009, 12:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by antjraf View Post
I guess we must just agree to disagree here. But, at the very least, we do so in a respectful and brotherly manner, as displayed by our discourse before others, and keep the focus on Christ and His Glory rather than us and our own. I presume, that on this notion, we can close our discussion in agreement.
We can agree to disagree, as I suggested earlier . . . but even your own cites of the figurative use (3004) affirms my assertion that the figurative use belies any direct reference back 8 verses as pronoun to the Scribes. Peace and love in Christ, antjraf. Be well, Mystic.
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Old 02-10-2009, 12:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
We can agree to disagree, as I suggested earlier . . . but even your own cites of the figurative use (3004) affirms my assertion that the figurative use belies any direct reference back 8 verses as pronoun to the Scribes. Peace and love in Christ, antjraf. Be well, Mystic.
In peace, and for His glory. Amen.
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