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Old 01-13-2009, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 5,031,481 times
Reputation: 627

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The truth of our individuality and the differences of our needs is the blind spot that makes the judgmental literalists so harmful to the spiritual development of so many.
So you are saying this is not judgemental?

Quote:
If everyone were the same as Fundy or Robin . . . then their "tough love" and primitive approach to motivation and persuasion would obviously be effective . . . since it apparently resonates with them.
Sounds a little judgemental.


Quote:
The problem, of course, is that we are not all like Fundy and Robin (I am tempted to say . . . thank God . . . just kidding). THAT is why we are chastened NOT to judge but only witness our interpretations and beliefs and let the INFALLIBLE Jesus and the holy spirit decide what each of us NEEDS to be persuaded (not the FALLIBLE Fundy's and Robin's of the world). To do otherwise is arrogant and dangerous to our own soul's fate . . . since we are responsible for those soul's we influence . . . for good OR ill.
I am sorry, you are right, I see no legalism in your references but I do see a lot of judging coming from you. Now what is that word, oh hypocrite, not that I am calling you one but your approach would seem much like hypocricy.
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Old 01-13-2009, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 5,031,481 times
Reputation: 627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richio View Post
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"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
John 13:35
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You are right Richio, we are not showing the love of Christ.
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Old 01-13-2009, 05:17 PM
 
40,103 posts, read 26,772,494 times
Reputation: 6050
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
I am sorry, you are right, I see no legalism in your references but I do see a lot of judging coming from you. Now what is that word, oh hypocrite, not that I am calling you one but your approach would seem much like hypocricy.
Pointing out your factual actions (unlike relying on your fallible interpretations of your reading of scripture to judge others beliefs) . . . is NOT judging under scripture. There seems to be no reasonable way to penetrate your obstinate certainty and self-righteousness to get you to humble yourselves enough to back off judging others and their beliefs (using your interpretation of love . . . tough love . . . or whatever). Such obnoxious behavior is NOT love.

I found an excellent post elsewhere:
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
Oh,that we would humble ourselves and see our place...understanding that God is the only sovereign being and he and he alone decides who,what,where,and when.

Last edited by MysticPhD; 01-13-2009 at 05:30 PM..
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Old 01-13-2009, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 5,031,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Pointing out your factual actions (unlike relying on your fallible interpretations of your reading of scripture to judge others beliefs) . . . is NOT judging under scripture. There seems to be no reasonable way to penetrate your obstinate certainty and self-righteousness to get you to humble yourselves enough to back off judging others and their beliefs (using your interpretation of love . . . tough love . . . or whatever). Such obnoxious behavior is NOT love.

I found an excellent post elsewhere:
Because you cannot see the truth you choose to judge those who do. I have never claimed to be self righteous, I have even gone so far as to live by the verse"How can you remove the speck in your brothers eye when you have a beam in your own". How else would you prefer we approach others just say"Go ahead sin all you like, God is fine with that."?

As Fundy said, you make alot of accusations without a shred of proof. Show the verses we have interprited wrong and lets us reason together.
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Old 01-13-2009, 08:01 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,723,188 times
Reputation: 748
Isn't it ironic that the only things we say, is you are taking it out of context, study scripture using scripture, Jesus is the only way and we get labeled, judgmental, zealots, intolerant, self righteous, ignorant, egotistical, legalist, pharasees, arrogant, primitive, simple minded and the list can go on. YET! we are the bad guys, we are the ones who make the world a horrible place? Makes ya ponder on (John 15:18-20) when Jesus said, "They hate Me. They will hate you too."

"18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also."
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Old 01-13-2009, 08:17 PM
 
Location: Pawnee Nation
7,525 posts, read 14,915,070 times
Reputation: 7014
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
How else would you prefer we approach others just say"Go ahead sin all you like, God is fine with that."?
Probably the most interesting question since this thread opened.

First of all, there is no "just say "Go ahead.............."......simply because no one needs your permission. Second, you cannot say "God is fine with that.".....simply because you cannot speak for God.

What you do, when you encounter someone you feel moved to approach with the Gospel, is pray. Pray constantly. Ask that God's will be done, and if it is in God's will, that the person you are praying about will open the door. You see, Jesus will prepare his/her heart.....Jesus will bring him/her to you....you do not have to do a thing except 1) be available, 2) make your life a witness, and 3) be prepared to explain salvation and what freedom in Jesus is all about. Now, live your life like Jesus would want you to live so the person can see Jesus in you. And when (not if) you are approached, try to be pleasant, be helpful, be instructive.........

A hint.......don't talk very much about hell. I know, you know, the person will one day know, that hell is a very real reality. But we want people to embrace the love of the Lord, not cling in fear.......we don't want to blackmail them into salvation......once they get over the fear they tend to fall away. But if they embrace Jesus in Love they tend to develop a personal relationship with Him and they tend to stay excited about it.
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Old 01-13-2009, 08:27 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 5,031,481 times
Reputation: 627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodpasture View Post
Probably the most interesting question since this thread opened.

First of all, there is no "just say "Go ahead.............."......simply because no one needs your permission. Second, you cannot say "God is fine with that.".....simply because you cannot speak for God.

What you do, when you encounter someone you feel moved to approach with the Gospel, is pray. Pray constantly. Ask that God's will be done, and if it is in God's will, that the person you are praying about will open the door. You see, Jesus will prepare his/her heart.....Jesus will bring him/her to you....you do not have to do a thing except 1) be available, 2) make your life a witness, and 3) be prepared to explain salvation and what freedom in Jesus is all about. Now, live your life like Jesus would want you to live so the person can see Jesus in you. And when (not if) you are approached, try to be pleasant, be helpful, be instructive.........

A hint.......don't talk very much about hell. I know, you know, the person will one day know, that hell is a very real reality. But we want people to embrace the love of the Lord, not cling in fear.......we don't want to blackmail them into salvation......once they get over the fear they tend to fall away. But if they embrace Jesus in Love they tend to develop a personal relationship with Him and they tend to stay excited about it.
Something has gotten confused here. I havent told anyone they were going to hell and from what I was understanding I have been dealing with Christians for the most part. We have been attacked for our interpritation of the scriptures but no one has offered alternative interpritations. God has given us the word to work with in our daily lives,

Goodpasture, I believe the misunderstanding has been because of an outside influence. You seem to be kind enough to address the situation at hand without actually judging, could you please go back and see where this thread has gotten so far off course?
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Old 01-13-2009, 08:27 PM
 
178 posts, read 349,430 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodpasture View Post
What you do, when you encounter someone you feel moved to approach with the Gospel, is pray. Pray constantly. Ask that God's will be done, and if it is in God's will, that the person you are praying about will open the door. You see, Jesus will prepare his/her heart.....Jesus will bring him/her to you....you do not have to do a thing except 1) be available, 2) make your life a witness, and 3) be prepared to explain salvation and what freedom in Jesus is all about. Now, live your life like Jesus would want you to live so the person can see Jesus in you. And when (not if) you are approached, try to be pleasant, be helpful, be instructive.........

A hint.......don't talk very much about hell. I know, you know, the person will one day know, that hell is a very real reality. But we want people to embrace the love of the Lord, not cling in fear.......we don't want to blackmail them into salvation......once they get over the fear they tend to fall away. But if they embrace Jesus in Love they tend to develop a personal relationship with Him and they tend to stay excited about it.
This is the most insightful, informative and true-to-the-Word post in this thread. All of us should read this over and over again and let it sink in. Read it in the context of how Jesus himself ministered to others. Realize this is what and HOW we should be doing.

Great post. I hope all who read this will put aside the somewhat "bickering" nature of some of the posts on this thread and concentrate on our duties as bondservants of Christ Jesus.
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Old 01-13-2009, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Pawnee Nation
7,525 posts, read 14,915,070 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
Something has gotten confused here. I havent told anyone they were going to hell and from what I was understanding I have been dealing with Christians for the most part. We have been attacked for our interpritation of the scriptures but no one has offered alternative interpritations. God has given us the word to work with in our daily lives,

Goodpasture, I believe the misunderstanding has been because of an outside influence. You seem to be kind enough to address the situation at hand without actually judging, could you please go back and see where this thread has gotten so far off course?
If you go back to the original post,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I am seeing this accusation of Pharisee and legalist more and more slung around this forum very loosely and irresponsibly.
The word Pharisee is used to shut people up by judging them in the worse manner. It is used very loosely in the Evangelical community much like liberals who sling the words "homophobe", "racist", anti-semite".

So once and for all, let's have it out (and now, Lets' get Rrrrrready to Rrrrrrrruuuuuuuumble-but in a Christian loving manner)


what was being commented on is the legalism. Both the legalism as practiced by the Pharisee and by many (if not all) Fundamentalists. And after seven pages of bickering and arguing about it, it seems to come down to this last bit.

There is a strong contingent who, like the Pharisees, believe that it is important to establish all the rules that we must live under so that we can achieve sanctification. So they have created or interpreted all kinds of rules and requirements and (what I consider) nonsense things to do. You can count an infinite number of "qualifications" to become Christian......you have to be sober, so don't drink. You have to have only one wife, so never divorce. You must speak in tongues, You must not speak in tongues. You must worship on Saturday, not Sunday. It's okay to eat snails, it isn't okay to eat snails. Being gay is an abomination. We have to keep the old testament rules, all the old rules are done away with. Every position is supported by scripture and every position is straight from God's word. (I find it funny how no one gets stoned for playing football, though) Everyone thinks they have a lock on how God wants it to REALLY be........

The Pharisees thought that way too. In Jewish tradition, a millennium was devoted to interpreting the rules and laws....they affected every thing in a Jewish life. They could only eat certain foods prepared a certain way, they could not associate with certain people, they could work only at certain times, they had to worship on specific days, they had to sit in specific places.......and every rule was straight from God's word. Every interpretation was discussed and agreed on by the wisest of them all who would then teach these rules and traditions in their place of worship on the sabbath.

An example of the defense of the legalisms and the Pharisee mind set is this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Yes it's called the word of God, you know the gospel? You on the other hand believe in the postmodern gospel. "Your truth works for you and my truth works for me. We can take different roads and still end up at the same point. That totally contradicts the bible no matter how you cut, slice, dice, spin.

It's not our reading, we learned from smarter than you, you have a problem understanding that. It is a doctrine we follow. It is you who have your own understanding, your own doctrine. Stop accusing us of something you do.
What you, Robin, and you, Fundy, don't realize is that you are falling into the same trap that Jesus preached against. It is a trap of "doing" and a trap of "laws" and "rules."

What a Christian must do is welcome Jesus into their life. This does not mean they live a life without sin. But you help others when ever you can. You condemn no one, regardless of what they are doing.......after all, there is no degree of sin......99.99999% pure is 100% impure.

I share a life of freedom that can only be found in Jesus. I have His words of comfort and reassurance. I do not fear death. I am not afraid I might go hungry. I put in long days at work, I sleep and play and make love and laugh and share.....it really is a wonderful life. But I cannot imagine being separated from the assurance of Jesus......never knowing, when I got up in the morning, if I had "enough" stuff, or if I would die what would happen to my loved ones, or any of the day to day fears that can infest a life. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil.........I can lay down with enemies.....His rod and staff are with me..........

Thank God He talks to me......thank God He lets me talk to him.......He reassures me constantly.......I could no more live without Him in my life than I could live without air. But it is a personal relationship........and it has nothing to do with your laws, or parsing scripture, or in context or out of context.......can't you see how irrelevant those are? The ONLY relevance is that relationship with Jesus......everything else is nonsense.....
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Old 01-13-2009, 10:17 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 10,018,015 times
Reputation: 58210
Only those who criticize fundamentalists are those who do not believe the Bible is truth and the inerrant word of God.

Fundamental = basic, simple understanding

That's all there is to it. Like it or not, what Robin and Fundie are saying is true. It's wonderful that you have a close relationship with Jesus, but is He the Jesus of the Bible? How can He be if you don't believe the Bible?

Jesus of the Bible is not a guru, and Jesus of the Bible is not a muslim prophet. He is the only way, truth and life and disbelief in the Bible means disbelief in the Jesus of the Bible.

The Bible is one size fits all, not cut to fit.
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