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Old 01-09-2009, 10:55 PM
 
154 posts, read 218,045 times
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SALVATION:

Christians say that "GOD LOST His only son to save us". To whom did God lose Jesus if he owns the whole universe?

1` If it was agreeable with God's Majesty to have sons, He could have created a million sons the like of Jesus. So what is the big clear deal about this only son?

2` Why does the Bible say that Jesus wanted to die on the cross, when the one on the cross was shouting "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" according to Matthew 27:45 and Mark 15:33?

3` If God had wanted to save us, couldn't He have done that without sacrificing Jesus?

4` God is Just, and justice requires that nobody should be punished for the sins of others, nor should some people be saved by punishing other people. Doesn't the claim that God sacrificed Jesus to save us because He was Just, contradict the definition of justice?

5` People sacrifice things they have to get something they don't have when they can't have both. Christians say that "God SACRIFICED His only son to save us". We know that God is Almighty; to whom did He sacrifice Jesus?

6` A real sacrifice is when you can't get back what you have offered , so what would be the big deal about such a sacrifice if God could recover the same offering? (according to the Christians' terminology)?

7` If all the Christians are saved through Jesus and are going to Heaven no matter what they do, then the teachings of Jesus are irrelevant and the definition of good and bad are also rendered irrelevant. If this is not so, then do Christians who believe in Jesus yet do not follow his teachings nor repent go to Hell?

8` How can Christians take deeds as irrelevant after becoming one when Jesus says in Matthew 12:36; "But I say unto you that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the Day of Judgment. For by the words thou shalt be justified, by the words thou shalt be condemned"?

9` Christians say that people go to Heaven ONLY THROUGH JESUS, yet Paul says in 1 CORINTHIANS 7:8-16 that the unbelieving husband is acceptable to God because he is united with his wife and vice versa, and their pagan children are also acceptable to God. So people can go to heaven without believing in Jesus according to this.

10` How come the Bible says that ALL Israel is saved although they don't believe in Jesus? Doesn't that contradict the claim in the Bible that the only way to heaven is through Jesus?

11` According to Christians, those who have not been baptized will go to Hell. So even the infants and babies go to Hell if not baptized, since they are born with an inherited original sin. Doesn't this contradict the definition of justice? Why would God punish people for sins they never committed?


Can any christian answer the above questions beyond blind faith
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Old 01-10-2009, 01:15 AM
 
2,255 posts, read 4,900,678 times
Reputation: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by samankaru View Post
SALVATION:

Christians say that "GOD LOST His only son to save us". To whom did God lose Jesus if he owns the whole universe?

1` If it was agreeable with God's Majesty to have sons, He could have created a million sons the like of Jesus. So what is the big clear deal about this only son?

2` Why does the Bible say that Jesus wanted to die on the cross, when the one on the cross was shouting "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" according to Matthew 27:45 and Mark 15:33?

3` If God had wanted to save us, couldn't He have done that without sacrificing Jesus?

4` God is Just, and justice requires that nobody should be punished for the sins of others, nor should some people be saved by punishing other people. Doesn't the claim that God sacrificed Jesus to save us because He was Just, contradict the definition of justice?

5` People sacrifice things they have to get something they don't have when they can't have both. Christians say that "God SACRIFICED His only son to save us". We know that God is Almighty; to whom did He sacrifice Jesus?

6` A real sacrifice is when you can't get back what you have offered , so what would be the big deal about such a sacrifice if God could recover the same offering? (according to the Christians' terminology)?

7` If all the Christians are saved through Jesus and are going to Heaven no matter what they do, then the teachings of Jesus are irrelevant and the definition of good and bad are also rendered irrelevant. If this is not so, then do Christians who believe in Jesus yet do not follow his teachings nor repent go to Hell?

8` How can Christians take deeds as irrelevant after becoming one when Jesus says in Matthew 12:36; "But I say unto you that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the Day of Judgment. For by the words thou shalt be justified, by the words thou shalt be condemned"?

9` Christians say that people go to Heaven ONLY THROUGH JESUS, yet Paul says in 1 CORINTHIANS 7:8-16 that the unbelieving husband is acceptable to God because he is united with his wife and vice versa, and their pagan children are also acceptable to God. So people can go to heaven without believing in Jesus according to this.

10` How come the Bible says that ALL Israel is saved although they don't believe in Jesus? Doesn't that contradict the claim in the Bible that the only way to heaven is through Jesus?

11` According to Christians, those who have not been baptized will go to Hell. So even the infants and babies go to Hell if not baptized, since they are born with an inherited original sin. Doesn't this contradict the definition of justice? Why would God punish people for sins they never committed?


Can any christian answer the above questions beyond blind faith
Well to make this short. I have asked you repeatedly to tell us how the first prophecy in the Torah which is recorded at Genisis 3:15 get's fulfillment in the Quran. But you have never answered that. Nor for that matter has anybody else on your team.

The Bible show it has a fulfillment in Jesus Christ and has even yet to be completely fulfilled , but it will. Where does Genisis 3:15 find fulfillment in the Quran ???

The other problem here is that, although you admit that English is not your mother toungue, you still Cut N Paste what appears to be something off of an Islamic "How to Counter Christians" website, but I'm wondering if you yourself really are understanding any of those questions you just pasted ??? The bottomline is that if you don't understand what that scripture which is from the Torah, a Holy Scripture you say is truth, as well as the Law given through Moses for running the ancient nation of Israel, then it is impossible for any of you to understand any of those questions you've just pasted and any discussion would be a waste of time and fruitless.
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Old 01-11-2009, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Pawnee Nation
7,525 posts, read 14,934,500 times
Reputation: 7014
Quote:
Originally Posted by samankaru View Post
SALVATION:

Christians say that "GOD LOST His only son to save us".
No we don't. Consequently the rest of your ill thought out post is irrelevant. If you are going to put words in the mouths of Christians, make sure you put the correct words there. Otherwise you tend to look foolish. Like you do now.

What was said, though, so you won't continue in ignorance and deception, can be found in John 3:16-17
Quote:
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[c] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
See, God GAVE not LOST.......big difference.......great big big big difference. Now you know, try not to blow it again, ok?
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Old 01-11-2009, 05:23 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,660 posts, read 30,309,158 times
Reputation: 30204
Jesus was never lost, God always knew where He was
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Old 01-11-2009, 06:34 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 14,175,670 times
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Amen. I've never heard anyone say, God lost His Son. He gave His Son. God bless.
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Old 01-11-2009, 07:00 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,740,525 times
Reputation: 748
Quote:
=samankaru;6926972]SALVATION:

Christians say that "GOD LOST His only son to save us". To whom did God lose Jesus if he owns the whole universe?
Actually God "gave" not lost
Quote:
1` If it was agreeable with God's Majesty to have sons, He could have created a million sons the like of Jesus. So what is the big clear deal about this only son?
Exactly! if that was the case but Jesus is not a created being because Jesus is God.
Quote:
2` Why does the Bible say that Jesus wanted to die on the cross, when the one on the cross was shouting "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" according to Matthew 27:45 and Mark 15:33?
Jesus was not looking forward to His crucifixion, remember Garden of Gethsemane (Matthew 26:36-46)
38Then He said to them, "My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me." 39And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."
Quote:
3` If God had wanted to save us, couldn't He have done that without sacrificing Jesus?
No because Jesus sacrifice was the only thing in all the cosmos sufficient enough to forgive our sins. God is just and hates and must punish sin, since our sins have offended an eternal God then we need something eternally to appease God. because of Jesus sacrifice God can now see us as righteous. Jesus took God's punishment that was meant for us because we broke His laws. Jesus sacrifice took our place. Jesus paid your fine.
Quote:
4` God is Just, and justice requires that nobody should be punished for the sins of others, nor should some people be saved by punishing other people. Doesn't the claim that God sacrificed Jesus to save us because He was Just, contradict the definition of justice?
Technically. He is just therefore He must punish sin but God is also love and merciful by sacificing His Son for us, this Gives God the glory, another nature of God.
Quote:
5` People sacrifice things they have to get something they don't have when they can't have both. Christians say that "God SACRIFICED His only son to save us". We know that God is Almighty; to whom did He sacrifice Jesus?
God is love, this was His preordained plan when He created the universe. God loves us so He gave His only begotten Son because it gives God the glory. God's nature is receiving glory. He created the universe, the earth, sacrificed His Son FOR US so he can receive the glory, to show what a good God He is.
Quote:
6` A real sacrifice is when you can't get back what you have offered , so what would be the big deal about such a sacrifice if God could recover the same offering? (according to the Christians' terminology)?
I don't think you understand, God HATES sin, it is detestable, disgusting, downright putrid to Him. God killed a couple just for lying. Jesus on that cross bore all sins past, present and future. Jesus became sin. Jesus became a liar, Jesus became a murderer, Jesus became a pedolphile. He sufferered spiritually worse more than anyone will ever know. He became sin for us and if we don't acknowledge that, repent and put our trust in Him then He will collect and there will be hell to pay.
Quote:
7` If all the Christians are saved through Jesus and are going to Heaven no matter what they do, then the teachings of Jesus are irrelevant and the definition of good and bad are also rendered irrelevant. If this is not so, then do Christians who believe in Jesus yet do not follow his teachings nor repent go to Hell?
If you do not follow His teachings nor repent then YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN! We do not get saved, He saves us, there is nothing we can do to enter heaven, when He chooses us we repent and put our trust in Him then the Holy Spirit enters us and we show ourselves to be Christian by the fruits we bear and grow in holiness. If a "Christian" is still doing wicked things then they are not growing nor bearing fruit and like Jesus said, that fruit tree will become dry, withered and will be tossed in the fire.
Quote:
8` How can Christians take deeds as irrelevant after becoming one when Jesus says in Matthew 12:36; "But I say unto you that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the Day of Judgment. For by the words thou shalt be justified, by the words thou shalt be condemned"?
Deeds are not irrelevant- one of the ways showing a Christian is growing in holiness, but deeds do not get you saved, deeds will not get you in heaven because that would take glory away from God for saving you and God will never allow that. We will ALL give account our sins here on earth
Quote:
9` Christians say that people go to Heaven ONLY THROUGH JESUS, yet Paul says in 1 CORINTHIANS 7:8-16 that the unbelieving husband is acceptable to God because he is united with his wife and vice versa, and their pagan children are also acceptable to God. So people can go to heaven without believing in Jesus according to this.
No you took that out of context, always remember, context is VERY important when reading the bible. That is what we call "Household Salvation" (not biblical) In this case, the passage is not dealing with salvation or sanctification (being made holy before God) at all. In a nutshell Paul says, do not be "unequally yoked" with unbelievers meaning Christians should only marry Christians but if this is not the case through whatever scenario then a marriage between a believer and a unbeliever is still acceptable to God. Jesus is the only way.
Quote:
10` How come the Bible says that ALL Israel is saved although they don't believe in Jesus? Doesn't that contradict the claim in the Bible that the only way to heaven is through Jesus?
Again context, I admit this is a tough verse. The bible says, for there is “no distinction” between Jew and gentile. There are two Israels- one is physical and the other Spiritual (Israel of God) that will be comprised of Jews and Gentiles who believe are grafted in. They become part of the "same body" with believing Jews. Paul calls this unity of believing Jews and Gentiles, "the mystery of Christ"
Quote:
11` According to Christians, those who have not been baptized will go to Hell. So even the infants and babies go to Hell if not baptized, since they are born with an inherited original sin. Doesn't this contradict the definition of justice? Why would God punish people for sins they never committed?
While I don't believe you have to be baptized to go to heaven because that is a work righeousness, a deed to get in heaven thus taking away God's glory but we should be baptized because God commands it. I believe in orginal sin but babies are not part of the salvation program. Remember when King David's baby died, he said, He cannot come to me but I can go to him, the bible shows some indication that babies will go to heaven. God still sees babies as precious. I might add that I believe the sames goes for mentally ill and physically handicapped as well. As far as the age of accountability? that is a mystery.
Quote:
Can any christian answer the above questions beyond blind faith
A young boy is told by his father to not touch the stove because it was hot, the boy took his father at his word and believed (a sort of blind faith) but one day the boy had to see for himself and touched the stove, it burned him. He has now moved from belief into experience. That is the same for all of us Christians, the Holy Spirit dwells inside of us and it is an unexplainable feeling. It is not blind, on the contrary it is as real as the computer I am typing on.

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 01-11-2009 at 08:09 PM..
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